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de-worming young birds - when is it safe?

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by Gonda, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. Gonda

    Gonda Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I have a bit of a problem here with coccidiosis and capillaria worms (hairworms). I have 8 pullets and cockerels (started out with 14, lost 6 over the past month), and I have 4 adult birds, all housed together. I submitted two dead birds for necropsy and got this diagnosis. I've been treating all of the birds for coccidia, with amprol, and my plan is/was to start de-worming next week. It's very hard to get advise here locally. My dog's vet doesn't deal with poultry, and the local poultry consultants, who I have spoken with, deal with large commercial scale operations and are quite liberal with advise about drugs, and I find I have to filter their advise. There is a pharmacy here locally that deals with animal products, both medication and natural, but they are reluctant to advise on the drug issues for animals. They want you to do your own research, and they're give the nod of approval when you settle on a treatment.

    I haven't done any de-worming before. I started this flock after losing my previous flock to a dog attack. I had been using DE as preventative, and keep the coop and water/feed clean. I started out with the four adult birds, which I bought from a very reputable breeder. It's a very clean operation. However, I should have de-wormed them when I received them, as she had advised me to do. I didn't do that. Then I bought the 14 chicks from her, and because they had no mom and the weather was terrible here (cold, wet spring and early summer) they were inside for the first few weeks. I understand now that set them up for coccidiosis, as they didn't develop a natural immunity, doing what chicks with a mom normally do. Anyway, the 8 remaining chicks have not been sick, but were a bit less active, and are responding very well now. They've really come around again. In addition to treating hem with amprol, I've been giving them all a mash of buttermilk/yogurt, garlic, pumpkin seed powder, Vit A. But, I thought I should get on the de-worming and the poultry vet advised to do that 24-48 hours after the cocci treatment is finished so that will be next week. But, I understand it is not advisable to de-worm chickens until they're about 5 or 5 or 6 months. Does anyone have any literature around that, or can anyone advise on that?

    I have read that fenbendazole is the de-wormer indicated for capillaria, and I understand capillaria (hairworm) can be hard to get rid of. I can get the fenbendazole at the pharmacy, but again, they can't give me advise about dosing. Does anyone know about the dosing? I had read that you can do a 1 or 3 day treatment. But the poultry consultant said to do it for a week, and repeat after 19 days. That worries me, in light of what I've read about de-worming being hard on chicks, and the concern about treating young chicks. Here's what I read at http://msucares.com/poultry/diseases/solutions.html:

    One-day
    Treatment

    1 oz Safeguard or Panacur per 15-20 lb feed

    Dissolve the fenbendazole product in one cup of water. Mix this solution well into the feed and give to the birds as their only feed source for one day. When completely consumed, untreated feed can be given. Be sure that the commercial medication contains 10% fenbendazole.

    Safeguard is a product of Ralston Purina, and Panacur is a product marketed by American Hoechst. One ounce of medication will treat about 1000 10-oz bobwhite quail. Adjustments of the amounts of medication and feed needed may be necessary depending on the number and size of the birds.

    Three-Day Treatment

    1.2 oz Safeguard or Panacur in 100 lb feed
    -or-
    4 oz pkt of "Worm-A-Rest Litter Pack" (Ralston Purina) in 50 lb feed
    -or-
    5 lb bag of "Worm-A-Rest Mix Pack" in 495 lb feed

    Feed all the medicated feeds free-choice for three consecutive days. The feed mixtures provide 75 ppm fenbendazole. Quail will receive about 1.7 mg/bird each day for adult birds or 2.75 mg/lb of bodyweight.

    Fenbendazole has been shown to be a very effective treatment for eliminating Capillaria (capillary worms), Heterakis (cecal worms), Ascaridia (roundworms), and Syngamus spp. (gapeworms). Toxicity from overdosing with fenbendazole is very remote. Research indicates that amounts up to 100 times the recommended dosages have been given under research conditions without adverse effects to the birds. Use of this product during molt, however, may cause deformity of the emerging feathers. [end of quote]

    Does anyone have any experience with this, and can you tell me what dosage and protocol I should follow? And can you tell me if I should treat the younger birds, as well as the 4 older ones? I do have to treat the four older ones, though two are broody. That's an added complication. Eggs are due to hatch on the 19th. The rooster seems healthy but perhaps a bit less active though I figured he was bored, as two of his ladies are on the nest brooding, and the 3rd hen hasn't been well. I've now concluded that she must have worms. She's been sleepy. She eats, drinks, roosts, walks, runs, but constantly sits and closes her eyes. I had been treating her for an abscess on her bottom, which is improving, and thought it was because of that. Now that I know I have a worm issue (and adults aren't likely to be susceptible to coccidia, I understand), I wonder if her sleepiness is due to worms. I've been hand feeding her the mash, and I do think she's picking up a bit.

    So, lots going on here. I'm not happy, but have to sort it all out, and quickly, so the next hatch has a better start than my beautiful lavender orpingtons and wheaten marans have had. Thankfully, they're looking good now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  2. Gonda

    Gonda Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I should add that one concern I do have about my remaining seemingly healthy 15 week pullets and cockerels is that one or two of them seems to be lagging a bit behind in growth. Of the 5 orpingtons, there is only one that has a marked growing comb, and so I'm assuming he's the only cockerel, but he's the smaller of the 5, which I find a bit of a concern. He has always seemed healthy and active, very friendly curious little guy, but he's smaller than the others, who look like pullets as far as their small non-growing combs are concerned. Should I be concerned? Is his growth possibly stunted by worms?

    Of the three remaining wheaten marans, there are two cockerels. One is really getting big, the other not as much, and the pullet is not really growing that fast, and is not nearly as big as the lavenders, but that might be normal for the breed. Two sibling pullets died of that hatch, one suddenly with no warning. This remaining pullet seemed a bit less active but is also coming around as are the orpingtons, now that with the amprol treatment. And the yogurt/garlic/pumpkin/Vitamin A mash might be helping, if not with de-worming, at least preventing a secondary infection from the coccidiosis, and is giving them extra nutrition and increased strength, I would assume.

    Should I be concerned? Should I de-worm them, is the bottom line question?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  3. welasharon

    welasharon Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Hopefully Dawg53 will see your post and help with ages...if not a pm will work.
    sharon
     
  4. Gonda

    Gonda Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Is Dawg53 the recognized expert on this subject? [​IMG] I'm definitely looking for "expert" or experienced input so if Dawg53 is known to be that, I'll happily await a response.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  5. welasharon

    welasharon Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Yep!
     
  6. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    I responded to your previous post. You did not provide this information in your previous post and wanted to hear from others what they had to say.
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=555474
    I recommend you use Valbazen(albendazole), a liquid cattle/sheep wormer. Administer it orally, 1/2cc for standard size chickens, 1/4cc for smaller chickens. Redose again in 10 days. You can order it from Jefferslivestock.com or call them. There is a 24 day withdrawal period start to finish.
    Valbazen kills all known worms that chickens get:
    http://healthybirds.umd.edu/Disease/Deworming Birds.pdf
     
  7. Gonda

    Gonda Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:I didn't mean to offend you, but don't know the background, experience, knowledge base of people on the forum, so have to rely on getting advice from various sources and then find a common theme, or make a decision as to what seems to make most sense or is most pertinent to the context I'm in.

    I'm in Canada and can get fenbendazole, which is also listed on the site your mention. Fenbendazole has been recurring as the recommended dewormer for capillaria, and seems to be a safe less toxic option, so perhaps safer for young birds. I don't know what's better, let the young birds live with capillaria, which is according the pathologist a serious thing and needs to be addressed, or give them a treatment, and then choose what seems to be the safer treatment. I've read that Safeguard is recommended for young goats, being less potent than some other dewormers. So, I'm still researching and trying to find answers.

    Has anyone worked with fenbendazole? Does anyone have experience with capillaria nematodes in chickens (hairworm)? Has anyone de-wormed young pullets/cockerels?
     
  8. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    Quote:I didn't mean to offend you, but don't know the background, experience, knowledge base of people on the forum, so have to rely on getting advice from various sources and then find a common theme, or make a decision as to what seems to make most sense or is most pertinent to the context I'm in.

    I'm in Canada and can get fenbendazole, which is also listed on the site your mention. Fenbendazole has been recurring as the recommended dewormer for capillaria, and seems to be a safe less toxic option, so perhaps safer for young birds. I don't know what's better, let the young birds live with capillaria, which is according the pathologist a serious thing and needs to be addressed, or give them a treatment, and then choose what seems to be the safer treatment. I've read that Safeguard is recommended for young goats, being less potent than some other dewormers. So, I'm still researching and trying to find answers.

    Has anyone worked with fenbendazole? Does anyone have experience with capillaria nematodes in chickens (hairworm)? Has anyone de-wormed young pullets/cockerels?

    You dont want to let your birds live with ANY type of worm. For future reference, when you post in the emergency section here, you should post all pertinent information possible so that others can help. If you had mentioned that you lived in Canada for example; instead of recommending valbazen, I wouldve recommended ivermectin or fenbendazole. I know what wormers are sold and used in Canada as well as the UK. I also know that piperazine (which is sold in Canada) is useless against capillary worms. That being said and moving along...I have used Safeguard (fenbendazole) many times.
    You need to go ahead and buy the Safeguard liquid goat wormer. You will need to administer it orally with a syringe, without a needle.
    The dosages are 1ml for giants, 3/4ml for large fowl, 1/2ml for standard size, 1/4ml for smaller chickens. Redose in 10 days. Then you can take a poop sample to your pathologist and have them look and see if there are any worm oocysts under the microscope.
     
  9. Gonda

    Gonda Chillin' With My Peeps

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    thanks, Dawg53. The liquid formulation I have is 100mg/ml. Is that the strength you're basing your dosage on? And are you recommending that I do go ahead and treat the 15 week birds as well as the older ones, using the appropriate dosing? And are you saying to do this for only one day? The vet had said to do it for 7, and to repeat after 19 days and I did read somewhere to treat for 7 days with fendabenzole and repeat after 14 days. Sorry, don't mean to be mistrusting, it's just that I don't know you and I am trying to work with recommendations that are contradictory. I also see the site (which I quoted in the earlier post) that offers a one day or 3 day option. So it's hard to know what advise to follow.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  10. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    Quote:You should treat all your chickens at once. Redose again 10 days later to kill larva hatched from eggs since the initial worming. If you wish to do a third worming...redose again 10 days after the second worming. Ml's are the same thing as cc's in our standard measurement. Perhaps you better follow your vets advice. Good luck.
     

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