Difference Between Blue and Self Blue

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by I Love Layers, May 14, 2016.

  1. I Love Layers

    I Love Layers Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I've recently started raising Cochins, so I purchased my first pair last weekend. I bought a Blue Hen, and a blue frizzle rooster.
    So lately I've been trying to find some breeders who have Blue Cochins, while looking I saw Blue and Self Blue.

    I'm very confused by the difference and am hoping that someone can help me understand this
     
  2. Hatching

    Hatching Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Self blue refers to lavender. Like blue, self blue/lavender is a mutation of black.
     
  3. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Blue and self blue can be considered the same plumage color. Most often when breeders refer to blue ( also andalusian blue) they are talking about the phenotype produced by the blue gene. This gene is incompletely dominant so if a bird carries one blue gene the bird is a diluted black color or blue. A single blue gene dilutes a genetically black chicken to a blue color. If a bird carries 2 blue genes then the black plumage is diluted to a splash plumage- a light gray to white plumage that has splashes of blue/dark blue.

    Self blue refers to a chicken that has blue plumage that covers the entire body with no other colors in the plumage. Self blue many times refers to birds that are lavender. Lavender is a recessive gene; two lavender genes will dilute a genetically black chicken to a uniform blue color.

    Most often when breeders refer to self blue they are talking about a lavender chicken and not a blue chicken, Chickens that carry one blue gene can also carry other genes that produce other plumage colors or secondary plumage colors- blue laced red is an example of a secondary plumage color- this is a red/gold chicken with a single blue lace on a feather. This bird carries blue but is not self blue because of the red.

    Lavender can also be used in making secondary color patterns. Birds that are laced and carry lavender are referred to as violet laced. Even though the violet laced bird carries two lavender genes the buff or silver found in the bird disqualifies the birds from being a self blue.
     
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  4. junebuggena

    junebuggena Chicken Obsessed

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  5. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Incorrect. Blue and Self blue are not even close to the same plumage color. They are two different genes, and are completely unrelated.


    Both blue and self blue can be considered the same plumage colors because they are both blue. A self blue chicken and a blue chicken both have blue plumage. Blue is a gene and lavender is a gene- there is no self blue gene. The blue gene can cause both the blue and the self blue plumage color. Self blue describes a blue chicken that does not have secondary color patterns on his or her feathers. For example, in the Old English Game Bantams self blues are blue chickens that do not have black lacing on their feathers. OEGB blues are blue chickens that have black lacing, like in the Andalusian blues. Self blue chickens can carry either the blue gene or two lavender genes.

    The bird is considered blue and not self blue, because of it's genetics. If it was the lavender/self blue genes modifying the black, the red would also be diluted.

    Genetics is not a consideration in my explanation; this portion of my post deals with the difference between a solid blue chicken and a blue chicken that has red feathers with blue lacing. I originally stated that "Self blue refers to a chicken that has blue plumage that covers the entire body with no other colors in the plumage." This was my point blue laced reds carry the blue gene and are not self blue because of the red plumage- they are not a solid blue therefore they are not self blue.

    This post deals with the difference between blue and self blue. I did not see a reason to get into expression differences between blue and lavender.


    Violet Laced birds are Silver Laced with the Blue gene, not the lavender/self blue. The lavender/self blue lacing is commonly call Lilac laced. Color patterns that use Lavender/self blue include Coronation, Isabella, and Porcelain Mille Fleur.

    You got me on this one- blue laced silvers normally carry one blue gene and are referred to by chicken fanciers as violet laced. But the same plumage can be created by breeding two lavender genes into the genome of the silver laced wyandotte. Same phenotype (secondary color pattern) with a different genotype- the phenotype being a silver feather with a blue lace.


    Two quotes I would like to emphasize from my post

    1. Most often when breeders refer to blue ( also andalusian blue) they are talking about the phenotype produced by the blue gene.

    2. Most often when breeders refer to self blue they are talking about a lavender chicken and not a blue chicken
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  6. junebuggena

    junebuggena Chicken Obsessed

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    This post deals with the difference between blue and self blue. I did not see a reason to get into expression differences between blue and lavender.

    Considering that self-blue and Lavender are the same gene, it is entirely appropriate. The effect the self blue/lavender has on coloring, other than black is a key feature of the gene; and one thing that sets it apart from the Blue gene.

    And while Blue and Self blue both produce grey birds, they are very different. Blues are not a uniform color, even if they don't have the proper edging. The head is usually darker, and the color gets a bit lighter towards the back end of the bird. Blues can range in shade from deep charcoal to a light smokey color. And Splash can be so pale the look white, with flecks of darker greys throughout. Lavender/Self Blue is the same shade of pale grey all over. They do not look the same at all. The difference may be subtle, but to a practiced eye, it's obvious.
     
  7. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I can post a few links to papers that deal with the lavender gene. Please click on the links to read the papers or abstracts on the lavender gene.

    http://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2156-9-7

    http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/93/1/73.short

    http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/g73-067

    http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/101/3/339.short

    http://jcs.biologists.org/content/51/1/25.short

    There is no self blue gene.
     
  8. junebuggena

    junebuggena Chicken Obsessed

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    That doesn't stop the APA from using it as a label for varieties. They don't recognize the term Lavender at all. They use the term self blue. From a genetics stand point, they are the same gene.
     
  9. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The APA can name the variety whatever they want ( that is what they do), but when it comes to genes; the scientific community gets to name the genes (that is what they do).

    Chicken fanciers on this forum can not just decide to call a gene what they want to either.

    No malice intended just want people to know the facts.

    I love Layers,

    I hope this discussion did not detract from your understanding concerning the varieties blue and self blue. If you have questions please post again.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  10. I Love Layers

    I Love Layers Chillin' With My Peeps

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    No it didn't! I'm kind of glad this happened cause the judge at 4H doesn't really like me and she picks on the littlest things so now I know many ways
     

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