Chickentrain's Dog Q&A

[chickentrains]

H e l p so what do I look for as a buyer?

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

 

[RiverOtter]

FYI, there's no such thing as too old for breeding. Breeding older dogs is how you increase longevity in a breed, and was a substitute for health testing, before health testing was a thing, and still, with some working breeders. Because if a 7+ year old dog is healthy enough to do a job and have puppies, then clearly, that dog has no serious health issues (obviously may be a carrier, but still)

 

[chickentrains]

FYI, there's no such thing as too old for breeding. Breeding older dogs is how you increase longevity in a breed, and was a substitute for health testing, before health testing was a thing, and still, with some working breeders. Because is a 7+ year old dog is healthy enough to do a job and have puppies, then clearly, that dog has no serious health issues (obviously may be a carrier, but still)

I mean


you can't really breed a 15 year old dog

the bitch wouldn't be able to psycially handle it, and the dog probably would have low fertility

 

[RiverOtter]

I mean

you can't really breed a 15 year old dog

the bitch wouldn't be able to psycially handle it, and the dog probably would have low fertility

If a 15 yo dog is healthy enough to conceive, carry, birth and nurse a litter, that's a healthy dog.

It has happened. As humans, we have mental images of a toothless old granny with an infant and we get weird about it, but in animals, it's not an issue. Breeding for them is health related, they don't menapause. Older dogs breeding is not the mark of a bad breeder, but actually a sign of a really healthy bloodline

 

[chickentrains]

dont old dogs also have smaller litters?

 

[RiverOtter]

dont old dogs also have smaller litters?

On average, not as an absolute truth.

Which is a matter of economics, not quality, as far as breeding is concerned. Also, people want to advance, next, next, next. This isn't always a good thing - they're not iPhones, where you want to rush to the next gen. Proven dogs are just that - dogs who have proven their quality, by passing the tests of time.

 

[chickentrains]

On average, not as an absolute truth.

Which is a matter of economics, not quality, as far as breeding is concerned. Also, people want to advance, next, next, next. This isn't always a good thing - they're not iPhones, where you want to rush to the next gen. Proven dogs are just that - dogs who have proven their quality, by passing the tests of time.

but what about genetic diversity when you use the same stud or bitch over and over

and isn't it only ethical to breed a bitch every few years?

 

[RiverOtter]

Genetic diversity is best served by keeping a large breeding population, not by rushing to the next generation. If you have a dog and it's great grandpuppies all reproducing at the same time, you have more of a breeding population, and while those dogs are related, you have many variations on a theme, instead of only the latest and greatest.
Ok, look; if you breed a bitch once, ALL of her puppies are related. If you breed her 5 times, you have spread out her genes over 5 sires, and have 5 variations. If those 5 sires come from 3 generations of dogs, you have far more genetic diversity than if you bred her to a like-age dog, then bred one of her puppies to a like age dog, and did that 5 times.

And no, studies have shown it's actually healthiest to "cluster breed" a bitch. Let her have 2 or 3 litters back to back, and then rest - which her body will sometimes (and ideally) naturally do, by not coming into heat. Every "open" heat (a heat where a bitch, especially one who has previously had puppies, goes unbred) is a risk of pyometra. Nature doesn't like it.

 

[chickentrains]

Genetic diversity is best served by keeping a large breeding population, not by rushing to the next generation. If you have a dog and it's great grandpuppies all reproducing at the same time, you have more of a breeding population, and while those dogs are related, you have many variations on a theme, instead of only the latest and greatest.
Ok, look; if you breed a bitch once, ALL of her puppies are related. If you breed her 5 times, you have spread out her genes over 5 sires, and have 5 variations. If those 5 sires come from 3 generations of dogs, you have far more genetic diversity than if you bred her to a like-age dog, then bred one of her puppies to a like age dog, and did that 5 times.

And no, studies have shown it's actually healthiest to "cluster breed" a bitch. Let her have 2 or 3 litters back to back, and then rest - which her body will sometimes (and ideally) naturally do, by not coming into heat. Every "open" heat (a heat where a bitch, especially one who has previously had puppies, goes unbred) is a risk of pyometra. Nature doesn't like it.

Oh, okay!

so after a bitch has 5 generations of dogs, a 5th generation male from "her" could breed back to her without any issues with COI?

 

[RiverOtter]

Oh, okay!

so after a bitch has 5 generations of dogs, a 5th generation male from "her" could breed back to her without any issues with COI?

You mean, could you breed her to her great-great-great grandson?
Well sure. That's simple math. Her son has 50% of her genes. Her grandson, 25%. His son has 12.5. His son has 6.25. And his son, gen 5, has 3.12% of her genes. Breeding dogs that are 3.12% related is certainly an acceptable COI