ChickenMama308

Songster
Mar 17, 2018
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71
101
Hi everyone, so 10/27 I took Nani to the vet and sadly received an EYP diagnosis, exactly 3 weeks after I discovered something was off with her and along the way I've treated her for many different things trying to rule it all out. (She is a 2.5 y/o RIR who free ranges 24/7 and I don't even see, let alone collect/eat her eggs anymore and haven't for at least 6 months)

In case the info of her journey is helpful, the original post on 10/23 I made was is here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...p-cocci-diarrhea.1278010/page-2#post-20577259

The second I made on 10/24 was here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...everely-underweight-hen-how-to-treat.1278120/

In a nustshell, she was treated for either obvious or uncertain: lice, coccidiosis, worms, diarrhea, emaciation, crop issues, and now EYP.

At this point, I'm just trying to understand EYP - and where Nani is at in her journey with it, assuming it is a correct diagnosis. Her major symptoms right now are:

- emaciation (currently at 2.10 pounds.. less than half of her normal body weight)
- mostly liquidy poo, somewhat like egg yolk with little or no feces and yellow tint.
- weakness, lethargic
- eating / drinking very little
- crop never seems to go down 100%, though when my vet checked it via tube he said it was empty
- last night her crop kept re-filling with air after I had fed her and gave her medicine / water orally via syringe. I burped her 3-4x by massaging her crop, only to have her crop re-fill like a balloon. Still trying to figure out what that means?
- today her skin on her face is flaking off.
- her comb and face have been pale again for the past 2 days, before that it was bright red.
- She has been scratching her eyes, face and comb a lot
- She has this weird neck twitch..turning her head to the left and it turning back and forth in a way that seems involuntary. happens a lot whenever she has gone to drink water and sometimes when she does go to eat, or sometimes just randomly.
- the only things she has voluntarily eaten the past few days here and there have been spinach, papaya, and today some meal worms.
- One positive thing today was that she preened her feathers for the first time that I have witnessed in almost 3 weeks.

Questions:

I read that EYP is caused either initially by some bacteria, or ovarian cancer. How does the bacteria end up in the oviduct in the first place? In theory, is it possible to kill off all the initial + extended bacteria that causes the inflammation that causes the internal laying that causes the EYP? My vet said he honestly has little experience with/treating EYP - he didn't even drain her yolks which I definitely regret. I asked him too, if he could do it in a sterile way and he said that was not possible and that he wouldn't be able to drain all of it anyway. I only later realized that he had in fact pierced through her abdomen to receive the yolk fluid - might as well have got more, right? He did tell me there is a small chance that he pierced through a soft shell egg or something but he couldn't detect that via ultrasound. He never tested the yolk for any sign of bacteria so that is uncertain. The interesting thing is that Nani has no visible/tangible abdominal swelling... that must be a good thing, right? Because she is so underweight.. I doubt that she is ovulating right now, but just in case I am making sure that she gets 12+ hours of darkness each night here in the house to prevent her from producing more yolks. The vet said he saw what looked like one yolk in her abdomen. Is there a chance that she is just internally laying, and that it is not yet EYP? I'm confused what the difference between the two are.. because from what I understand EYP can either be sterile or non-sterile, so what's the difference between internal laying and sterile EYP?

I've just been trying to tie into the picture somehow her cause for being skin and bones underweight.. I saw some post saying that ovarian cancer can block the intestines and cause digestive issues.. is that possibly what's going on? Maybe she just has a slow crop, or slow gizzard? The vet said EYP can 'back things up' but I'm trying to understand how/why. Or is something separate happening? Her lack of eating / drinking, her weight and her mysterious crop functionings are making me wonder what's happening there or how it's all connected. Today for the first time, it actually felt doughy. Before then it's mostly been soft and squishy, non-existent like twice, and very firm a couple mornings. Again, she's eating very little.

We just started her on antibiotics and inflammatories yesterday, so waiting to see if that makes any difference for her - which would mean it's bacterial based, correct? But there's a chance it is caused by a virus that doesn't react, if I understand correctly. Also the chance of ovarian cancer, which RIR get frequently, as well as any reproductive disease unfortunately, from what I have read.

I was planning to give her an epsom salt bath now, a blow dry session and an epsom salt enema, then of course her medicine tonight. As I am new to this, any tips / insights / thoughts based off what I have wrote so far would be super appreciated. I want to give her a chance to see this through, but if I believe she is just suffering, then I will take her back to the vet to put her to rest. Please let me know what else to try as I love her very much and would prefer to get her back to health and well-being - thank you <3

- also, does anyone recommend specific probiotics and/or digestive enzymes for her?
 
Last edited:

coach723

Free Ranging
6 Years
Feb 12, 2015
6,503
10,888
611
North Florida
EYP is often secondary or a symptom of another issue. She may have a reproductive problem like internal laying. While antibiotics may treat the infection it is likely to recur if the underlying issue is still there. Internal laying, cancers, salpingitis all can have EYP with them. I have had a high percentage of reproductive issues with hatchery RIR's, to the point that I probably won't buy any more of them, mine usually start between 2 and 3 years old.
 

ChickenMama308

Songster
Mar 17, 2018
123
71
101
EYP is often secondary or a symptom of another issue. She may have a reproductive problem like internal laying. While antibiotics may treat the infection it is likely to recur if the underlying issue is still there. Internal laying, cancers, salpingitis all can have EYP with them. I have had a high percentage of reproductive issues with hatchery RIR's, to the point that I probably won't buy any more of them, mine usually start between 2 and 3 years old.

I’m sorry to hear that :( and yes, Nani is only 2.5 years old and is from a hatchery. I’m trying to make my best guess at whether it may be salpingitis - though she has never laid a lash egg she has passed little fleshy bits that could potentially be lash material. I can’t feel any abdominal swelling in her right now. Attached are some of the most suspect photos of her poo along the way... a couple of them have what others believe may be lash material.

Her crop never seems to fully deflate, and when my vet said it seemed her crop had fluids in it, he put a tube down to take a sample but nothing came out - dry! He said because the crop is expandable tissue maybe it was all just bunches up? But the other night she literally continually filled up like a balloon and I burped her 3-4 times with massage... I’m wondering what this, paired with her lack of interest in eating, is a result of? If her crop really was mostly filled with air somehow, that could make her not feel hungry? Could it signify a digestional issue? In that case the concern would be cancer from what I’ve read.

Is internal laying the same thing as EYP, just without the component of bacteria having been introduced? I wonder if it’s possible she’s only at the stage of internal laying, that would be ideal it seems but unsure of that. My vet did say EYP but I know he didn’t test for bacteria. Waiting to see what a full week of antibiotics and anti-inflammatories do for her :hugs
 

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coach723

Free Ranging
6 Years
Feb 12, 2015
6,503
10,888
611
North Florida
Does look like lash material. EYP is the infection from egg material deposited in the abdomen, as you can imagine egg yolk is a very welcoming medium for bacteria to grow in. For salpingitis, it may be treatable if found early, often once symptoms are seen it's well advanced. Some birds never pass lash eggs, it just builds up inside and cause isn't confirmed until necropsy. It's certainly worth a try to see if she responds to antibiotics. I've had some pass fairly quickly from salpingitis, some lasted 18 months or so until they were obviously not feeling well and I euthanized, so it can vary greatly from bird to bird.
I wish you the best, hope she recovers.
 

ChickenMama308

Songster
Mar 17, 2018
123
71
101
Does look like lash material. EYP is the infection from egg material deposited in the abdomen, as you can imagine egg yolk is a very welcoming medium for bacteria to grow in. For salpingitis, it may be treatable if found early, often once symptoms are seen it's well advanced. Some birds never pass lash eggs, it just builds up inside and cause isn't confirmed until necropsy. It's certainly worth a try to see if she responds to antibiotics. I've had some pass fairly quickly from salpingitis, some lasted 18 months or so until they were obviously not feeling well and I euthanized, so it can vary greatly from bird to bird.
I wish you the best, hope she recovers.


Thank you! I'm just wondering if because her abdomen isn't swollen, that maybe it's beginning stages? It's been 3 weeks of symptoms, but I don't believe she would be producing yolks at this point seeing how underweight she is. I am unaware of her track record of laying for the past 5-6 months but I'm pretty sure she had become an infrequent layer. Before then however, she did lay some abdnormal eggs - soft shell, and hard shelled, abrsive / deformed. I believe she had coccidiosis a couple weeks ago as I saw blood in her poo, which I treated with corid.. and I was hoping that stuff that looks like lash material in her poo was just cecal core from her experience with coccidiosis. I wish I could have a better idea of what exactly is going on with her so I could be of most efficient help. For now, the priority is her antibiotics and anti-inflammatories, force-feeding/drinking (until she does it on her own, and gains some weight!), time for rest and time for play with her sisters <3
 

ChickenMama308

Songster
Mar 17, 2018
123
71
101
I checked my other 2.5 y/o RIR's abdomen tonight and hopefully I'm wrong but it feels fairly full... I haven't noticed any other indications that anything is off with her but I will be keeping a close eye now.
 

micstrachan

Enabler
Premium Feather Member
5 Years
Apr 10, 2016
10,338
49,426
1,087
Santa Cruz Mountains, California
I agree that is lash material. I would treat aggressively with antibiotics. If the vet pulled yolk from her abdomen, she is also laying internally. But you are correct in that it may not be EYP yet. I think it’s possible the salpingitis is causing the internal layi g. If treated, maybe the internal laying will stop. Has she molted yet this year? While molting makes y girls drop weight, it also causes a break from laying, which is a blessing if there is a reproductive disorder going on.

If she were mine, I’d probably try treating the salpingitis and if she responds to treatment, try to nurse her back to health. It will take time to gain her muscle back. A little extra protein can help with that. If she doesn’t respond, I would probably kindly end her suffering. You’ll probably know if and when it is time. I hope she is a fighter and pulls through!

Can you also provide some poultry vitamins? I think that may help with the strange movements.

Good luck and please keep us posted.
 

ChickenMama308

Songster
Mar 17, 2018
123
71
101
I agree that is lash material. I would treat aggressively with antibiotics. If the vet pulled yolk from her abdomen, she is also laying internally. But you are correct in that it may not be EYP yet. I think it’s possible the salpingitis is causing the internal layi g. If treated, maybe the internal laying will stop. Has she molted yet this year? While molting makes y girls drop weight, it also causes a break from laying, which is a blessing if there is a reproductive disorder going on.

If she were mine, I’d probably try treating the salpingitis and if she responds to treatment, try to nurse her back to health. It will take time to gain her muscle back. A little extra protein can help with that. If she doesn’t respond, I would probably kindly end her suffering. You’ll probably know if and when it is time. I hope she is a fighter and pulls through!

Can you also provide some poultry vitamins? I think that may help with the strange movements.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

@ChickenMama308, how is your girl doing?

Thank you for your thoughts and thoughtfulness! She's been on antibiotics and anti-inflammatories for a week now, and I plan to continue for at least another week (or maybe two!) She does seem to be responding to the antibiotics & anti-inflammatories, she is eating more and seems to have more energy to free-range for much of the day. Her poops are still mini but they look so much more normal and aren't as liquidy and I've been seeing very little hints of egg yolk in them, if any. I just wonder how long I should keep her on her medications and what happens when eventually she is no longer on them. I just called in for another week of each. I hope she goes sterile from Salpingitis and never lays again! Do you know if thats happen much in this scenario? That would be amazing. Or maybe she just lays normally again! I do know that she has laid both soft shelled and hard shelled / textured / deformed eggs in the past however. Her face and comb have gone very pale and her skin has been very dry and peeling on her face and wattles - I haven't seen her drink water on her own at all for a many days. She's getting really tired and resistant of the oral syringe sessions as well, poor girl. Her crop never seems to be fully flat, but she's eating and pooping so I'm assuming it's ok? I'm getting her some digestive enzymes to help just in case as well. Her weight has gone from 2.11 pounds to 2.128 which is small but honestly felt very positive as an improvement over here! My hens are 2.5 years old and it's never been clear to me whether they've molted or not? I live in Hawaii so the temperature is fairly consistent year round, doesn't drop too low! She does seem to have a lot of new feathers coming in but I'm not sure either way. She's been sleeping inside the house in a low-light bathroom - I've made sure she's had 12+ hours of darkness to make sure she doesn't ovulate. I have been giving her nutra-drench, some turmeric with black pepper extract plus vitamin B12 on and off as well! Her process seems slow but currently steady which feels great, and I have a spark of hope that maybe she'll come out of this and (fingers crossed, stay out of it) - we shall see. I definitely don't want her to suffer and though it would be hard, I would rather her not be in misery and would have her come to completion by assistance if / when the time would come. She is doing great, considering all that she has been through, and she still has her happiness showing clearly majority of the time.

I will keep you all posted - thank you so much for your time and care - it means a lot and helps so much and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!!! Aloha and have a beautiful evening! :)
 
Last edited:

micstrachan

Enabler
Premium Feather Member
5 Years
Apr 10, 2016
10,338
49,426
1,087
Santa Cruz Mountains, California
Thank you for the update! I am glad she seems to be responding. A total of two weeks is probably good for treatment. What antibiotic and anti-inflamatory are you using and at what dosage? How much does your bird weigh?

You say she isn't drinking, but is she eating? You can wet her feed to help get some fluids into her.

As far as molting, I have a 2 1/2 year old Australorp who has never molted nor ever stopped laying. She seems to ever so slowly molt continually, as some feathers are really tattered and old while others are shiny and new!

I have other birds who had big, bald prickly (from pin feathers) patches in their first autumn. I a finding it really varies!

Keep us posted on her progress!
 

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