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Ethics in Showing

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by saladin, Jan 7, 2013.

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  1. saladin

    saladin Chillin' With My Peeps

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    (I'm not talking about Faking which is well defined in the Standard).

    Obviously things have changed alot since I was a kid in 4-H!

    I was taught that you NEVER show a bird you didn't hatch and raise yourself! Now, I exhibit/attend shows where folks buy 'ready to show' birds. Amazing. Even the 4-Hers purchase and show birds they did not raise themselves. Amazing.

    Whatever happen to basic ethics in showing poultry?

    What's even more amazing to me is that when I've talked with new-comers about these basic ethics (4-H leaders and the like) they look at me like I'm just some dinosaur. Maybe I am, but I still have standards I live by.
     
  2. 4hchickmama

    4hchickmama Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I think the 4H rules state you have to have owned the bird for 4 months minimum prior to showing it. I've never heard about having to hatch it yourself. My girls have only hatched a few of our birds, all the others we bought as 6-8 week olds. I don't understand why that isn't ethical?

    Even with market animals, I've never heard of any requirement of hatching it yourself. Most kids get their market birds at a few days old from a hatchery, breeder, or feed store.

    Now I agree, a 4H bird should be a project that the child is actually working on for a minimum amount of time, but I don't think they need to hatch the birds themselves to be considered ethical. Not all 4Hers have the ability to do that. For instance, we are allowed chickens, but have a no rooster ordinance. So my options would be to only buy purchased eggs and buy an incubator? Why? When I can purchase young birds and still have my kids have the experience of raising them up. Now, I will also say, there is a separate category you can enter into, with extra prizes, for "bred and owned" or something along those lines, for birds who were bred and raised by the child.
     
  3. Heidi Thatcher

    Heidi Thatcher Out Of The Brooder

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    It would also depend on your chapter and location too. Some FFA and 4H only require the bird be owned for 1 month, not four. Some shows or fairs will have different rules for non 4h/ffa exhibitors as well. When I first started in 4H I was not able to hatch my own birds so I would buy young birds or ready to show birds from others and would work on their cage or table manners. The birds would either be sold after the show or returned to the person I got them from depending on arrangements made when I got the birds.

    I dont see this as unethical at all. Times change. If every 4H or FFA, or even independant exhibitor, had to hatch, raise, select, train/tame, and show their own birds those youth programs would die out. Some cities are still hard pressed to allow poultry as it is, and most that do allow poultry forbid roosters or overly chatty hens. Land prices are going up. People simply can't just up and move to a farm to raise birds for their kids to show.

    Just my two cents.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. snowbird

    snowbird Overrun With Chickens

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    I have always said I would only show a bird that I raised myself, I do believe that in 4-H and FFA thought that one month is fine. I give these kids fowl one year but will not replace them afterward in next years of showing.
     
  5. 1muttsfan

    1muttsfan Overrun With Chickens

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    I have provided young birds for 4-H kids who otherwise would not be able to raise quality chickens at all due to financial constraints,or with parents unwilling to buy eggs, chicks or to have more than a few birds at the house. I do think that it is WRONG for kids to show birds they bought practically finished before the show date, and which they did not care for at all.
     
  6. saladin

    saladin Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I wasn't just talking about 4-H/FFA. I was talking about adults as well.

    I have birds from folks that are excellent in type and feather. Some of those birds I've owned for 5 years and more. I would never consider for one minute showing them. Why? Because they aren't birds that I raised. By raised I mean: set up breed pens, hatched, feed, conditioned, etc.
    If I show bird it is my own: good or bad. That is the way I was taught in 4-H back in the 60s and though the times have changed my standards have not.
    If 4-H and local FFAs have changed those rules so be it. But that doesn't make it right especially if we are talking about adult exhibitors of birds. That's my opinion and I'm sticking too it.

    My kids all showed birds. Every bird they showed was theirs: from the breed pen to the show pen. They feed/water and condition their own birds. I wouldn't have it any other way.
     
  7. Heidi Thatcher

    Heidi Thatcher Out Of The Brooder

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    Well, feel free to have your opinion. Just don't act like its a sin for others to show birds that are not their own tried and true product from start to finish. I've seen more than a few ads for live birds listed with the seller full well pushing their birds for shows. NOT as breeding stock. If they sell the birds to have no problem with others showing them, then more power to them and the buyer who shows them.

    As I said, you are more than entitled to your own opinion. But the way you act like it's just wrong and shouldn't be done is a bit offensive. I did and still do show birds from other breeders. I have also put years into my own birds which I do show myself. I also sell live juvenile AND mature birds for others to show. I have no problems with this. In fact, it's a great way to get MY birds "out there" when the buyer may, in a chance of conversation, praise ME for raising the birds at a show or fair or other venue in which I myself am not present.

    Heidi
     
  8. 4hchickmama

    4hchickmama Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I found it kind of offensive as well. What difference does it make if you hatch a bird yourself or not? In adult exhibitors, eh...I kind of get that in a way. But especially with 4H/FFA, not everyone participating lives on a farm or can have a breeding program or own that many birds to weed out show prospects. In my city, you can have up to 20 birds for my acreage, but the next city over, you can't have more than 5. Both have no rooster ordinances. So I guess my kids would just be out of luck then? Back in the 60's, there wasn't as much land development, as well as ordinances regarding poultry ownership. 4h/FFA would die out if you put those restrictions in place. My daughters enter birds in both exhibition and showmanship. As I said before, we hatched TWO of the 10 birds they bring. All the others we have raised from 6-8weeks. My girls have put endless hours into caring for and working with their birds. You are saying that it's "not right" for them to show those birds because they didn't breed them themselves? Yeah...I'm glad 4H has a more open mind.
     
  9. cubakid

    cubakid Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Don't take it personally doc. Some BYC members have problems getting offended by the truth or reality. We see kids here in California that show birds that they don't condition handle or take care of. You see a five year old with an Old English in perfect condition, and can watch the parent groom the bird before the show.
     
  10. gallorojo

    gallorojo Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I don't believe Saladin ever intended to refer to market animals, like broilers, etc. .Those things are strictly about demonstrating proficiency in husbandry, and its fine to buy animals like that in. What is under discussion is the showing of adult , standard bred birds at real APA sanctioned shows. I myself have yet to show because anything good enough I have is within one generation of another breeders work, and I will not show birds I got from someone else or their direct offspring- those would not be my birds and taking credit for them would be dishonest. My grandfather lived to show standard bred animals of all sorts, and I grew up helping him with his animals, especially the chickens. He would never have shown something he bought from someone else! He liked to wait a few years out of decency, courtesy, and respect for the other breeder. What's at issue is not showing where all that's demonstrated is care and feeding, but showing standard bred animals. If you bought your stock from a breeder, you should have the respect to breed the birds yourself a few years, and make the success or failure they bring you YOUR OWN accomplishment , not someone else's. Teaching children this seems like a basic fundamental part of the package, like teaching good sportsmanship in athletics. It should not just be about learning to care for animals any more than putting your child in soccer is strictly about learning the rules of soccer- clearly it's about far more than that I hope! Good sportsmanship extends to the poultry world as well.
    Finally, Saladin is a very well respected individual within the poultry community who has been enormously helpful to many, many, persons getting started in breeding poultry. The man is a wealth of knowledge and very generous with his time , and his opinions are nearly always worth taking seriously .
     
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