FBCM with mossieness (sp?)

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by AHappychick, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. AHappychick

    AHappychick Wanna-be Farmer

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    I am throwing the occasional mossie looking (too much coper spread all over) chicks. I have been meaning to figure out who is throwing it but havent been able to as of yet. I also hatched out some more FBCM from 2 well known breeders and got one from each of their eggs as well. I intend to cull them but I was wondering if this is somethiong I should mention in my sales or is is so common that anyone buying this breed should expect it to happen from time to time. I would guess 1 in 30 eggs is producing one.

    Thanks
     
  2. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Are you talking about adult birds or chick down color?


    This is a problem that black copper marans breeders have encountered. The mossy birds would produce good males but not females ( my opinion).

    You need to isolate each female and mark the eggs to determine which bird is causing the problem. I have been working with a marans breeder who has had this problem. There have also been other breeders that have the same problem.

    There are multiple genetic answers to the problem. I think the wheaten allele is floating around in the black coopers and that is part of the problem.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
  3. cottagegarden

    cottagegarden Eggistentialist

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    I think it is so common you can expect it to happen with Marans until better breeding selection occurs over time.
    I dont know that you would HAVE to mention it, but I would be prepared to answer questions if someone hatches one.
    Since you know it will, it really couldnt hurt to explain it and therefore save yourself some time and show you are a more informed
    breeder.
    It would seem the mossy birds lay some of the darkest eggs, and are a welcome addition to a layer flock esp Olive Eggers!.
     
  4. AHappychick

    AHappychick Wanna-be Farmer

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    Quote:you know i did not even think about using them for an ee project last year I did not keep any to point of lay instead I sold them as layers for peole who wanted dark eggs and I ate the boys [​IMG]

    I guess I will hold onto a few if I can make the space up for them [​IMG]

    I guess I will mention it this way no one can say they were misinformed. I just sometimes feel like the more honset I am the less eggs I sell, and those that I know are selling bunk eggs always have bids. it can be very fustrating at times, but I guess I would rather have a few happy customers rather than a bunch of unhappy ones.
     
  5. WestKnollAmy

    WestKnollAmy The Crazy Chicken Lady Premium Member

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    I have heard that the mossy girls lay the darkest but so far mine all lay about the same except for a few with some spotted eggs. I had thought to put my mossy girls in the Olive Egger project but then realized these mossy girls come from supposedly really great breeders. I hatched the eggs, didn't buy them as chicks. i think it is in every line and it will takes many more years of work to get all this out.
     
  6. blackdotte

    blackdotte Chillin' With My Peeps

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    As Tim said there are genetic reasons for this problem, the floating Wheaten gene (which is endemic in US Black-Coppers), and lack of melanisers are the most common ones.
    But, in my opinion, the biggest problem is with the breeders that set or sell every egg laid, do not cull, and have faith in the name of "supposedly really great breeders" .
    All I can say is be more selective, get off the money go round, and concentrate on the birds.
    David
     
  7. Sparklee

    Sparklee Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:I didn't buy from you, but I bought hatching eggs from someone that didn't tell me that they had some "too coppery" (aka mossy) birds in their line. I'm not happy about it. And am gearing up for a few months of test hatchings to rid my breeders of any mossiness before I start building a flock. The mossiness will be eradicated from my BCMs. Extirpated. Gone. I may even have to start over. I've got a nearly-perfect-looking big male. I'm hoping he passes the test because he's a gem.

    Truth be told, I wouldn't have bought birds of that line if the breeder had been up front about their birds. Yes, it's one of the "big-name lines" of BCMs.

    One of the other "big-name lines" also throws the occasional mossy bird, but for different reasons that supposedly aren't clear yet.

    The reasons I've heard for the mossy birds are 1) lack of melanizers (the stuff that makes the feathers black) and 2) an accidental mis-breeding a few years back that introduced recessive wheaten genetics into one (or more) of the prominent lines of BCMs.

    Frankly, if there's a chance of a mossy bird, BCM breeders need to inform buyers. As far as I'm concerned, the BCM breeders/sellers need to clean up their lines and *not sell* eggs or birds until their birds breed true all the time or something like 95% or 99% of the time, whatever is standard for other breeds. I mean, how often does a Barred Rock throw a wrong-colored bird? Basically 30% of the eggs that I hatched from a BCM breeder were mossy. 30%! There's something wrong with that percentage and it's unacceptable.

    To be fair, though, who am I to place strictures on breeders/sellers? Especially if there are people out there willing to buy the eggs/birds? What are the Marans clubs for, though, anyway? Shouldn't they try to police themselves? When one reads how some of the other breeds were developed and accepted into the APA, you see that people would bring their birds to meetings and they'd all decide which ones could be used for breeding and which ones would be culled (right then and there, I believe). Tough stuff, but the selling of mossy birds to unsuspecting folks is pretty underhanded if you ask me.

    Wow, if I post this, will I be able to take it back? I bet I'll regret saying this tomorrow. I have a lot of regrets. Like only studying up on BCMs for a month before buying. I should have studied for 6 months and then I'd probably have been able to find out about the mossiness problem first.
     
  8. Goose and Fig

    Goose and Fig Grateful Geese

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    Maybe all the FBCM maran sellers should include a couple EE eggs in their orders just in case! [​IMG]

    I don't plan on having marans in the near future- but if I did I would buy from the OP because I've seen the care she's taken with her other breeds. Her birds & eggs are gorgeous. An occasional imperfection is to be expected no matter who you get your birds/eggs from.
     
  9. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Post Deleted by tadkerson.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  10. Sparklee

    Sparklee Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Do you really think that is the best way to produce pure Black Coppers? That almost certainly doesn't solve the problem because the other BCMs that I have are likely infected by the "floating Wheaten" gene, too. As I said, I will be doing test matings on *all* the BCMs I have. They may *all* have the "floating Wheaten" gene aka recessive eWh. And that's too bad. A whole line (not variety) completely tainted and proliferating in huge numbers being called a Black Copper Marans, even winning at shows, all because no one wants to clean up the line. They just keep selling eggs and selling obviously off-color birds as Black Copper Marans even though their chests are nearly completely copper. Why shouldn't I just sell all the dark eggs I possibly can and not inform any buyer that there is a "floating Wheaten" gene? I could use a few $$. Or I could get creative and just call them Terra Cotta eggs from the LaRochelle Chicken or Cocoa-colored eggs from the Maritime Charente Hen. That would be fair. Maybe I could contract with a hatchery to buy X amount of eggs from me every week and they could cash in on the dark egg craze, too.

    Quote:Why aren't the breeders culling out the defective birds and not breeding from them if culling is the answer? They're not culling or I wouldn't have gotten 30% mossy birds. I just looked up some of the past auctions on eggbid and someone sold a clearly red-chested bird as a BCM. If breeders crossed with other dark egg laying varieties (or breeds) to maintain (or even resurrect) dark egg color, then they should have bred out the added traits that are not part of the BCM breed *before* they started selling the eggs and birds to the unsuspecting and uneducated public (as I was and many, many others are). Is it honestly a BCM if there are "floating Wheaten" genetics still in the line? Are we kidding ourselves, being ingenuine, delusional? Take the "floating Wheaten" genes out by performing test matings, and if you lose egg color, you get to start over. Inform buyers that Black Copper Marans are still project birds and are in need of a lot of work on conformation and one famous line (at least) needs the eradication of the "floating Wheaten" gene. Last time I checked, not one eBay auction mentioned anything about a recessive eWh gene.

    Everyone accepting, yea, embracing, the "floating Wheaten" gene as something that "we just have to live with" doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't breeders be embarrassed by it? I'm not a breeder and it embarrasses me to know that my birds aren't pure BCM, that they have a flaw called a "floating Wheaten" gene (recessive eWh). It's bad form. It's not the quality way to do things. Test matings before breeding and selling the birds/eggs are key. Nothing should be let out of the pens until test matings of all birds for recessive Wheaten have been performed.

    And as for your admonition that I should be jumping for joy because I hatched eggs that happen to have produced birds that lay consistently a 6 or better ... huh? Well, the consistently thing hasn't been established yet. And I'll let you jump for joy. It's nice that some folks worked on egg color, I suppose. I'm sure I can't appreciate that work right now. Besides, aren't they now getting paid for their work ... including those folks who introduced the persistent flaw of the "floating Wheaten" gene? I bought plenty of eggs, paid my money, and thanked them. I think I've showed a reasonalbe amount gratitude, obviously not up to your standards, but ::shrug::. I'm jumping for joy for other things that I'm thankful for right now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010

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