Genetic Gurus...help please!

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by shelleyb1969, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. shelleyb1969

    shelleyb1969 Star Bright Farm

    It's my understanding that when a Delaware male is bred to a Rhode Island Red female, the offspring will have the Delaware color pattern. My question is...what happens when you take a female from this initial cross and breed her back to a Delaware rooster? Will there be a "surprise" color flaw in the resulting chicks? And can using this Delaware/RIR cross be used to improve the body type of a Delaware flock?
     
  2. blackdotte

    blackdotte Chillin' With My Peeps

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    You may find that the Mahogany in the RIR will cause your DelawareXRIR pullets to be salmon coloured rather than silver. Mating these F1 pullets back to a Delaware will/should produce birds similar in colour to both parents.
    David
     
  3. shelleyb1969

    shelleyb1969 Star Bright Farm

    Quote:Thanks blackdotte...that's very interesting. My RIR hens are a VERY dark mahogany (SQ stock), so I can definitely believe that their genes would have some effect on their offspring. And do you mean that by breeding the F1 pullets back to a Delaware roo I will/should get sex-linked offpring? Or will it be random colouring between the sexes?
     
  4. Henk69

    Henk69 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    David means that you get the silver delaware type and the creamy F1 hen type. No golds or reds.
     
  5. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The amount of red in the F1 pullets can vary from about 50% very dark red (dorsal side) to females with a small amount of red on the dorsal surface. Some females will have a creamy or salmon color as stated by Henk and David but will also show red on their dorsal surface. The back is usually blotchy red and light rust mixed with silver. The females will develop more red as they get older; with the most red showing at sexual maturity.

    Back crossing to a delaware male will produce female birds with similar colors but a few may show a small amount of red. Males tend to look more like a delaware with little or no red on the back and shoulders. For some reason (I do not know why) the silver males do not extend red as easily as females. The males tend to show some smut on their breasts.

    This has been my experience in working with my rhode island silver. I developed mine from a barred rock and rhode island red cross.


    The bird below is a 4th generation male and he carries a barring gene. Click on the pictures.

    [​IMG]

    The female below is a 4th generation female she does not carry the barring gene.

    [​IMG]


    I am in my sixth generation of breeding so the birds have improved quit a bit.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010
  6. shelleyb1969

    shelleyb1969 Star Bright Farm

    Thanks so much Henk69 and tadkerson! [​IMG]

    All of the information posted has told me exactly what I needed to know. But now I have another question, if you experts can mentor me a little longer. [​IMG] I'm wanting to improve on the body type of a young Delaware flock. My birds hatched from eggs I bought from a very good breeder, so they're not typical hatchery stock...if that matters. Is there a breed of hen that I can use to cross my roo with to get better body type?...without making it too difficult to maintain the Delaware standard? I know this is a very broad topic of discussion, but since it's so difficult to find quality Delawares that meet standard, I'm somewhat being forced into improving what I have.
     
  7. blackdotte

    blackdotte Chillin' With My Peeps

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    To answer that question you need to have your Standards, read & understand,get a mental picture of the ideal Delaware. Then read the Standards of other breeds and try to find the closest.
    Delawares were derived from Barred Rocks & New Hampshires. I would look a Rocks first,as they are closest in genotype , then New Hampshires, then RIR. US contributors may have more better targeted suggestions.
    If only Barred Rocks & New Hampshires were used to make the Delaware I thing it's genotype would be Wheaten eWh, Silver S, Barred B, Columbian Co ,single comb r, and w Yellow skin. The Barred Rock is Extended Black E, Silver S, Barred B, Columbian Co, single comb r, and w Yellow skin.
    A Delaware X Barred Rock will give only barred chicks, mated back to Delaware will give 50% each Barred & Delaware, mated together you will get Barred , Delaware & Barred Silver Wheaten.
    David
     
  8. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Do you have any delaware females? If you do, cross the male with the delaware females then pick the best type male and females then cross them. Continue to cross and select for birds with the best type.

    I do not think out crossing will help you. You will have to deal with both type and color once you out cross.

    Tim
     
  9. shelleyb1969

    shelleyb1969 Star Bright Farm

    Thanks for the words of advice, David. I do have a mental picture of what the ideal Delaware should be...and that image is what I'm striving for in my flock.

    Tim, I do have a few (3) Delaware hens that are currently breeding with my roo. 1 of them has the exact type I'm wanting, but the other 2 do not. Based on all the advice that's been given, I think it's probably best for me to use what I have and cull heavily until I get to where I want to be.
     
  10. speckledhen

    speckledhen Intentional Solitude Premium Member

    Well, I'm no genetics guru, but seems if you want to improve Delawares, you don't outcross to another breed with a different body type than a Del. You either get better Dels or you hatch and cull and hatch and cull till you have a Standard of Perfection Delaware. If you outcross to a breed with a brick shaped body, you would seem to be going away from what you want.
     

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