Genetically speaking... What are patterned Orpingtons?

ColtHandorf

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I am attempting to learn genetics in chickens, and let's just say I'm slogging through the material. I understand how "simple" genes play fairly well, for instance Blue or Lavender genes and they way the interact with Black and have since I was fifteen. But trying to use this bad boy:

https://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

Literally makes me want to scream. lol I know Silver-laced can be obtained several ways. Does anyone know what Silver-laced Orpingtons are from a genetic standpoint. I was playing around with it, and if I go to the over-simplified one I can get a Silver-laced, or Blue or Lavender hen for example and see what their offspring are, but that is just for plumage. I'm also interested in leg color.

The calculator also shows that the offspring would all be solid, from a Black Silver-laced x Splash as all chicks being Blue (unicolor-laced) but the same pairing with a Blue hen results in with the already mentioned unicolor-laced blues but also unicolor blacks. A Silver-laced x Lavender results in only black unicolor offspring but does not include the fact they are split to Lavender. Which I already know.

I'm aware that in crossing a laced bird to a non-laced bird, I am going to lose some lacing, but will none of the chicks express any lacing at all? I'm assuming that the pullets (F1) should be bred back to their brothers to produce birds carrying the blue or lavender genes and their offspring (F2) crossed back to the original males to regain the crisp lacing before the initial cross to add the color?

@CountryFlock or @nicalandia how exactly would the two of you approach the end goal of achieving Blue Silver-laced and Lavender Silver-laced Orpingtons? The methods can be the same or different. I'd just like to have the best idea of what to expect in the coming years. I already have Silver-laced and Lavender Orpingtons. I should be getting some Blue/Black/Splash in the next week or so.
 
Hello Colt! I love when people take interest into projects.

By the way! There’s is a new and improved chicken calculator here:
http://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

Silver Laced Orps are:
eb/eb Co/Co Ml/Ml Pg/Pg S/-
While Lavenders are:
E/E lav/lav

The first thing is that lavenders orpingtons have the allele E/E. This would have to be breed out and switched with the partridge allele eb/eb.

I can simplify this a little better. There are a whole 5 genes that you start losing when you straight up breed a lavender orp to a silver laced orp.

The reason why I would take an Isabel laced to a silver laced is because:

Silver Laced:
eb/eb Co/Co Ml/Ml Pg/Pg S/-
Isabel Laced:
eb/eb Co/Co Ml/Ml Pg/Pg s/- lav/lav

The only difference between them is silver and lavender. You only have to work with two genes in this situation.

When you breed lavender orp to silver laced orp 3-4 genes become heterozygous in the first generation plus the management of the partridge allele, it becomes very hard to do, if at all.

You can mess with the calculator and plugin lavender orp with a silver laced orp and see how wacky it can be.

But if you were to do it I’d first get an Isabel Orpington.
eb/eb lav/lav s/-
This already has the lavender gene with the partridge pattern (eb/eb).

From there I would breed the Isabel orp to a gold multiple laced partridge Orpington.
eb/eb Pg/Pg s/-
The only thing being done here is transferring the lavender gene to the gold multiple laced partridge orp.

This would result in a Isabel multiple laced partridge Orpington.

Now IF these exist somewhere already I’d just buy an Isabel multiple laced partridge orp and start with that.

And then work another gene in by getting a double laced orp. And so on...

Silver Laced Orp:
eb/eb Co/Co Ml/Ml Pg/ Pg S/-

Silver Double Laced Orp:
eb/eb Ml/Ml Pg/Pg S/-

Silver Multiple Laced Partridge Orp:
eb/eb Pg/Pg S/-

Silver Partridge Orp:
eb/eb S/-

See how the addition of a gene changes the phenotype of these orps?

This project is very possible yet very timely. Even if u skip the lavender Orpington and buy an Isabel Orpington. You would save a couple years of project time if you buy an Isabel orp.

Also about the silver gene:
In roosters it’s:
S/S = Silver
S/s = Yellow
s/s = gold

In hens:
S/- = Silver
s/- = Gold

For a lavender silver laced orp project you need good understanding because it can get confusing. The last thing I want to do is discourage someone about lavender laced orps. I’ve seen someone with project lavender laced orps and I believe they blindly bred lavender orps to silver laced, because the birds she had had genetic flaws and incomplete lacing. I doubt the offspring of those even resembled the incomplete laced lavender orp mother. She got somewhere tho.

I personally am doing a double laced orp project and all I’m doing is literally just removing the Columbian gene from a silver Laced Orpington.
Columbian gene is Co/Co
That project is a two year one for me. Should have the double laced chicks in winter.

About blue laced silver Orpington the same thing applies. The only easier thing is that the blue gene is incomplete dominant while lavender is recessive.

I’d make an Isabel multiple laced partridge Orpington first. Never seen one and would be very pretty!
Also would be a couple year project if gold multiple laced partridge orps and Isabel partridge orps were used.
 
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Thank you for that very in-depth reply. I will probably have to read it several times before I get the hang of what you're doing a wonderful job of explaining.

When you say multiple-laced are you referring to double lacing like in Barnevelders? I'm going for a single-laced effect, like you see on most other varieties.

Should I expect to see any lacing at all in the F1 generations? Am I correct in that I should breed siblings and then cross them back to the males from the parent generation?
 
Does anyone know what Silver-laced Orpingtons are from a genetic standpoint.

Yes Silver laced Orps are e^b(extension allele brown, AKA eb)
Co(Columbian restricted)
Ml(Melanotic)
Pg(Pattern gene)

Silver laced can also be produced from Birchen E^R allele but it requires an extra columbian restrictor(Db)(when using the calculator use the wyandotte sample instead of the sebright sample as the sebrights are based on ER)


The calculator also shows that the offspring would all be solid, from a Black Silver-laced x Splash as all chicks being Blue (unicolor-laced)
True they will be E/eb, Co/co+, Ml/Ml, Pg/pg?(some reports say Pg is also found in Blacks) and Bl/bl+

but the same pairing with a Blue hen results in with the already mentioned unicolor-laced blues but also unicolor blacks.
Well as you may already know when black is cross to blue(in this case bl+/bl+ vs Bl/b+) 50% of the chicks will be solid Black(in this case perhaps a small amount of leakage can be spected but not much since Melanotic is already in homozygous form)

Silver-laced x Lavender results in only black unicolor offspring but does not include the fact they are split to Lavender. Which I already know.
It should be there let me pull the picture(the Lav+/lav is highlited in a red circle)

lav.jpg
[/QUOTE]
 
This is multiple lacing. Just the Pg/Pg gene
6D21D550-C720-4747-AD86-83043CFDE2E9.jpeg

1781CE89-687B-4ECE-B9BA-2BDDFD4971FB.jpeg



And this is double lacing. Pg/Pg with Ml/Ml
AE837368-BA20-4975-BEAC-13D0C60FF530.jpeg
1B302B7F-DC9D-438E-BE96-B34EF63733B6.jpeg


*The multiple laced one is gold and the double laced one is silver.

About lacing in the F1 generations, between what two varieties were you talking about? Lavender orp with silver laced orp?
 

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The calculator also shows that the offspring would all be solid, from a Black Silver-laced x Splash as all chicks being Blue (unicolor-laced) but the same pairing with a Blue hen results in with the already mentioned unicolor-laced blues but also unicolor blacks.

Well as you may already know when black is cross to blue(in this case bl+/bl+ vs Bl/b+) 50% of the chicks will be solid Black(in this case perhaps a small amount of leakage can be spected but not much since Melanotic is already in homozygous form)

What I was mainly referring to here was the term "unicolor laced". I guess I don't understand why it specifies blue as unicolor-laced and black as only unicolor. I'd thought perhaps it was referring to the offspring expressing variation of the lacing gene, but that wouldn't make any sense at all for one color variety to show it and not the other. So does it refer to the natural lacing look of blue birds?

About lacing in the F1 generations, between what two varieties were you talking about? Lavender orp with silver laced?

Ideally I'd like to cross My Silver-laced males over Splash Orpington hens as well as Lavender Orpington hens. So in the initial crosses of both varieties to Silver-laced could I expect to see any lacing at all.

On another note since Black Orpingtons will be a by product of the B/B/S pen, I have heard it said that it is wise to cross Blacks back into the Silver-laced (and Gold-laced for that matter) to add size and correct body shape to the laced varieties. Obviously you'd lose lacing in the first cross but breeding them back to their respective laced varieties you'd regain it. But is that correct? It would stand to reason that if Lavender Orpingtons are
E/E lav/lav
then Blacks and technically Blue and Splash are also E/E (extended black, right?) and not
like the Silver-laced?
 
Also before we get super carried away, I'm hatching chicks out like these below...

Silver and Gold-laced Orpington Chicks.jpg


There you can see two siblings. I'm curious how the Lavender gene will play with whatever is going on under them. Not that I need another breed pen, but if it would be better to cross a Lavender cockerel over the pullets that were gold at hatch and then feathered in silver I could do that.
 
Yep, black, blue, and splash are E/E based and not eb/eb.

One big reason I wouldn’t breed lavender to silver laced.

Isabel orps are based eb/eb with lavender already. My pet chicken sells eggs of this variety but I would question the “English Orp” characteristics but it’s at least somewhere you can get this variety.

If you took a lavender Orpington and breed it to a silver laced orp the results in the calculator is black unicolor.

Realistically though you should get mostly black chickens with some color leakage. Not really lacing. The base E/E bred with eb/eb creates E/eb. E is dominant over eb.

What are the genetics of the two chicks you’re holding? Or what were they’re parents?
One looks like a silver laced orp chick and the other is identical to my F1 double laced orp project chicks.
(eb/eb Co/co Ml/ml Pg/Pg S/-)
 
The parents of those two chicks are this rooster, Sterling:

IMG_5373.JPG


and this hen, Duchess:

IMG_5369.JPG


I am aware that their leg color is incorrect. I'm working on that with the other four bloodlines of Silver-laced Orpingtons I have.

The four breeders I picked up from another breeder also produce chicks with the incorrect down color at hatching. As they grow up they begin to feather in Silver-laced though. This can be seen on the thread here on page three where I show a chick produced from the four new birds (it came with them) feathering in Silver:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...its-and-sex-linkage-with-lacing-gene.1310596/

Included there are some ramblings on my part and some education by Nicalandia as well as @Faraday40 sharing her experience with the same thing occurring in her flock as well as her project Blue-laced Orpingtons.
 
Here are some not so great photos of the four birds that produced the chick in the link I posted above.

IMG_6270.jpg
IMG_6281.jpg
IMG_6284.jpg
IMG_6286.jpg
IMG_6287.jpg
IMG_6311.jpg


Minus the hen sporting the saddle as that is Duchess the doormat, who will let anyone do her anywhere and as often as they like...
 

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