Genetics/phenotype feet in Ayam Cemani

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by cafrhe, Feb 8, 2017.

  1. cafrhe

    cafrhe Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Apr 23, 2014
    Western central NJ
    I have been breeding AC for a little over a year and have been trying to understand the genetics involved with the the phenotype of the birds. They are a land race breed--so have a varied background and color has been selected for over time. The faults we get in the AC are color leakage in the feathers. Some times the males get silver or gold in their hackles and/or saddles, from a few feathers to full color. Some times the leakage is just one or 2 feathers on the bird with a black core and some brown/gold on the edges. I have also seen some lacing (silver)

    Another fault is mulberry wattles and/or combs. There are birds who are all black on the outside, but the fibromelanosis is incomplete inside and they show pink mouths, which generally indicated normally colored to light grey internal organs.

    As with silkies, the FM is due to a duplication and inversion of a section dna with several genes involved. I believe the EDN3 is linked to the FM. I am not sure if scientists have decided that edn3 is entirely responsible for the fibromelanosis. Breeders often site lack of complete fm as relating to 'not full compliment of edn3'--I have read that the birds can have between 1 copy of edn3 up to 4.

    Now, my real question is---Toe color, what are the genes involved with leg/toe color? And what interaction do they have with fm and is fm traits supposed to overpower all other color/lack of color genes?

    I have chicks that hatch with partial white toes. It can be 1 toe with the tip white up to 4 toes with white extending up to the 2nd knuckle. I mark these chicks as culls as they did not hatch all black. What I have found from hatching over 150 chicks and letting many of the best grow out....chicks who hatch all black can have pink mouths and other flaws and chicks that hatch with flaws can have black mouths and better FM expression over all.

    Any thoughts on the FM genes and their expression? I have some understanding of genetics and some understanding of chicken genetics, but am not an expert by any means...I think I know enough to ask questions that drive me nuts lol!!

    Thanks for any thoughts!
     
  2. cafrhe

    cafrhe Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Apr 23, 2014
    Western central NJ
    I should add--Almost all white toes turn black with in a few weeks. Sometimes toes with white toenails keep the white toenail. If a bird hatches with clear toenails, often the quick is black and as they age the nail darkens. Most white toes turn black. Some times there is a white spot left on the bottom of the foot, but most become entirely black.
     
  3. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    There are many genes antagonistic to Fibromelanosis, Sex linked dominant Dermal Inhibitor(Id) is the most powerful, Barring, dominant white to a lesser degree, but it appears that on your case you must be missing melanizers instead of inhibitors, the leakage on the males feathers is due to loss of melanaizers on the extended black background and the white toe and nails is the same, your best bet is not to breed these birds or breed them to well melanized stock.

    Undermelanized Estended black Sumatra rooster.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. cafrhe

    cafrhe Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Apr 23, 2014
    Western central NJ
    thanks for the info!

    What is puzzling to me is that chicks with white toes can also have darker mouths than all black chicks. Hatching all black is no guarantee that they stay all black or are even all black inside. So on one hand they are exhibiting lack of melanizers and on the other they are showing more...

    The white toes are a very common fault. And I have gotten it even using all black parents--all black outside and dark mouths. I did get better color in my bc1 generation, using the same cock over his granddaughters. I have now replaced the original cock with his superior son and will see what I get when I start hatching in the spring.

    With a completely different line, I just hatched out 6 chicks and have 2 with white toes (one has 2 partial white toes and 1 has 1 partial white toe) that have darker mouths than 2 chicks that hatched all black.

    Do you know what causes the toes to then darken after hatching white?

    And what melanizers would be missing? Not enough of the FM effect or others that contribute to fm?

    Thanks!
     
  5. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    It’s believed that the AC breed has extra melanizers not found on Silkies, these extra melanizers have yet to be studied so if I had to speculate is that some of your lines are lacking one or more of these melanizers.
     
  6. cafrhe

    cafrhe Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Apr 23, 2014
    Western central NJ
    Ok, interesting. I have looked for and read what i can find about the fm or edn3 expression. I think all of it relates to silkies. Do you know of any other studies relating to the extra melanizers or where I can find more info on them?

    This is an interesting breed to be sure.
     

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