Genetics question about Brown-reds

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Dustin Biery, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. Dustin Biery

    Dustin Biery Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 4, 2007
    Mulberry, Arkansas
    Someone asked me about Brown-red. I presume that they are wanting to work on them with modern game. I have figured out that they are ER/ER s+/s+ Ap/Ap, and Di/Di may be present. Now help me through this. The ER is birchen, dominate on both genes. s+ is sex-linked silver, recessive so that the females only have one gene? Ap is Autosomal Pheomelanin (autosomal red). Now how do you tie all this together?
     
  2. pips&peeps

    pips&peeps There is no "I" in Ameraucana

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    I have another question to add to your post. Is brown red the same as black copper????

    I got my first pair of brown reds this year and they are definately not brown.
     
  3. Dustin Biery

    Dustin Biery Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 4, 2007
    Mulberry, Arkansas
    No, they are not the same. You could post pics, and Im sure someone could help you with the colors...
     
  4. flyingmonkeypoop

    flyingmonkeypoop Overrun With Chickens

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    Deer Park Washington
    Sorry I cant help with your question but I can help with Jeans. From what I understand the copper marans are a brown red bird but without the breast lacing. When crossed with other colors it acts like birchen.
     
  5. Dustin Biery

    Dustin Biery Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 4, 2007
    Mulberry, Arkansas
    Geeze Mike, where is my help...
     
  6. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Missouri
    Dustin and Jean,

    1. There is no documented gene for autosomal pheomelanin- Ap is the gene for apterylosis or autosomal nakedness. I am not saying that non sex linked red does not exist - I know it does because I have seen its effects in my rhode island silver.

    2. You are correct that brown reds are birchen and sex linked gold. I do not know where you got the dominant dilute from, I do not believe the dilute gene is found in brown reds. I have not seen or read any publications that would support the Di.

    3. Brown reds and black coppers are both birchen and sex linked gold. Some black coppers are what I call a pseudobirchen. They are extended black and birchen at the E locus. Black coppers have black extenders not found in brown reds. There is a modifier that causes the lacing in birchen and that modifier may be one Columbian gene or heterozygous columbian. The black coppers undoubtedly carry genes that modify the color caused by sex linked gold and it very well could be an autosomal gene that is causing the copper color. My thoughts on black coppers come from my working with people who breed black coppers marans.

    Now how do you tie all this together?

    Could you reword your question. I do not understand your question.

    Tim​
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  7. Dustin Biery

    Dustin Biery Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 4, 2007
    Mulberry, Arkansas
    Best way to put it, I guess, what do you cross to get brown reds? What birds would be the best to breed together to get the brown red variety. I got all of my information from Reeder, An Introduction to COlor Forms of hte Domestic Fowl. I will provide the title of the book when I am at home. I am trying to understand for myself from genetics books, but they are darn difficult to comprehend at times. On page 63 of this book it says that both Modern and Old English game bantams require the diluted versions while cochins do not.??? Thanks for your help Tim!

    **Editted to add the book titile.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  8. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Dustin,

    I also have Reeders book. I base my knowledge upon what research shows. I have a number of papers where individuals worked with birchen birds. I just received another paper on the subject and will read it this evening.

    There are modifiers that make some birds lighter than others. One example would be New hampshire and rhode island red. They both have very similar genotypes but one is much lighter than the other. Something is making one bird lighter than the other-what it is I do not know. It could be the dominant dilute (Di) gene but I can not say that unless I could isolate the gene through experimental crossing.

    You are going to have to cross a silver birchen female with a black tailed red male or a black breasted red male. All of the females will be brown red or gold birchens. Then cross the male offspring (lemon birchen with redish shoulders) to a female offspring. This cross will produce brown red males and females along with some lemon birchen males and silver birchen females.

    Only use the male offspring that are crow winged to cross with the females.

    Tim
     
  9. Dustin Biery

    Dustin Biery Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 4, 2007
    Mulberry, Arkansas
    As usual, you broke it down where I could understand. Thanks again Tim.
     
  10. Dustin Biery

    Dustin Biery Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 4, 2007
    Mulberry, Arkansas
    Ok, Tim, new set of questions. I told them about what we had already talked about..come to find out, they are trying to create brown red Rosecomb bantams. What do you suggest with that?
     

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