Genetics question!!! Self-blue question....

Discussion in 'Managing Your Flock' started by Guitartists, Jun 18, 2008.

  1. Guitartists

    Guitartists Resistance is futile

    Mar 21, 2008
    Michigan
    I wish we had a genetics category [​IMG]

    I know that if you cross self-blue with mille fleur... you get porcelain.. correct?

    Does the self-blue gene work this way with all patterns??? What exactly is it reacting to that it removes the black? For instance... what would happen if I bred a self-blue to a mottled or to a barred???? When does it trigger a genetic change that removes a color? When would it just create blues?? Can it even create just blue(besides self-blue)?? ANY info on self-blue is greatly appreciated! [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2008
  2. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

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    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    Quote:Me too!

    I know that if you cross self-blue with mille fleur... you get porcelain.. correct?

    You get... black chickens with that cross. Will explain below..

    Does the self-blue gene work this way with all patterns??? What exactly is it reacting to that it removes the black? For instance... what would happen if I bred a self-blue to a mottled or to a barred???? When does it trigger a genetic change that removes a color? When would it just create blues?? Can it even create just blue(besides self-blue)?? ANY info on self-blue is greatly appreciated! [​IMG]

    Solid lavender chickens are a black chicken pure for the lavender gene. The black is not removed, the pigment is merely altered in a way that gives the "lavender" shade.

    Lavender is a gene that affects both black and gold pigments.. Porcelains are an excellent example of this(BTW porcelains ARE lavender mille fluers).. it's the lavender diluting the black parts to lavender and the red parts to a straw color.. Magically remove the lavender and you get a normal mille fluer. If you can visualize lavender being like "sunbleched blue jeans".. fresh crisp jeans are deep dark blue and the lavender is the sun/stonewashing/etc that "dilutes" the dark blue to a pale blue..

    The reason you get black birds in the cross(lav and mottled) is because black is dominant, lavender and mottle are both recessive.

    Lavender also interacts with barred and possibly mottling(not sure about this myself).. so if you bred a lavender barred, the result is usually a pale lavender bird with poor barring(too pale without more distinct borders to the bars). Some people like this, others prefer for the bars to be sharp and distinct so this effect "ruins" it for the latter. I have not seen any lavender mottles, so I don't know if those would tend to be too "light"(large or mottle with not very distinct edges)

    Perhaps to give perspective.. a mille fluer crossed with a porcelain gives you mille fluers. Because they are both literally the same pattern, the same color genes etc.. except porcelains have one extra- the lavender gene. It's recessive so the result are normal mille fluers. However if you cross one of the offspring to a porcelain, you get half porcelains and half milles.

    Hope this helps?​
     
  3. Guitartists

    Guitartists Resistance is futile

    Mar 21, 2008
    Michigan
    I think I understand..... it "hides" the black, in essence? So when I breed the lav to a mille fleuf that black becomes dominant again because only one lav gene is present (not enough to cause lav) right?

    LOL

    If nothing else it will all become clear in a year or so when mine start hatching babies...LOL But I think I understand.

    Soo... will I get all black chicks from my F1 breeding? Or will I get some black and some mille??? And breed the F1 milles back to the lav??? LOL You did lose me there [​IMG] How do I get the porcelain? And if I breed the black to the lav I will get ???? Will I get blues/blacks and splashes??

    LMAO I will make myself understand this, really I will [​IMG]
     
  4. Guitartists

    Guitartists Resistance is futile

    Mar 21, 2008
    Michigan
    I found some info, and I am understanding it more... and what's more, I didn't realize that two seemingly identical offspring from the same parents could carry such different recessive genes. How does any breeder EVER part with any of them???? LMAO You almost have to keep them long enough to see how they breed out [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

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    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    Quote:More like lavender alters black to lavender. "Dilutes" the black.. When you are looking at a solid lavender bird, you are looking at a black bird, with its black diluted to lavender.. so the black is not "hidden", just looks different.


    Quote:Black is always dominant, just try to remember that lavender is an "diluted black".. so this cross is in a sense, is exactly like crossing ANY black chicken with a mille. So it's not a matter of the black becoming or losing it's dominance. The only difference is the cross with a lavender is the chicks only have one lavender gene so the chicks show as black.

    Quote:Yes hands on learning can help a lot in understanding..

    Quote:Haha.. yep all of the F1 will be black. Crossing the F1 will throw all sorts of colors and patterns.. too many to list, will get blacks, solid lavenders, black mottles, lavender mottles, and birds that look more or less like milles but not perfectly(it takes many genes to make a decent or better mille fluer pattern) along with birds either black tailed buff, BT whites(possibly) and lavender versions of those and so on. Only 1 out of 4 will be lavender, regardless of color and pattern otherwise.

    To get porcelains, that will be more of a challenge. The easiest way, is if you cross the F1 and get very lucky with a more or less mille fluer looking bird with lavender and then cross it with another F2 of the same and select out the ones with the better mille pattern.. or cross it with a pure mille fluer with good patterning.. that will give you all milles but those will be carrying lavender, crossing them will give you 1/4 porcelains.

    The reason this is a challenge is there's quite a lot of different genes in play and a lot of them are recessive. The more genes desired in a single bird, the harder it is(which means hatching and raising many more to select out the keepers for f2 and so on). You did get it- some breeders dealing with certain genes or patterns are forced to keep chicks long enough to see how they develop or have to test mate them to find out if they have the desired genes.. not always fun however when a person hits the desired goal, the pure elation from seeing those birds makes all the work and wait worthwile..

    Lavender does not have a splash version, that's the other blue.
     

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