Honesty in advertising??

Discussion in 'Chicken Breeders & Hatcheries' started by frenchblackcopper, Sep 17, 2009.

  1. frenchblackcopper

    frenchblackcopper Chillin' With My Peeps

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    This may be considered a "rant" but it fast becoming an issue with me on buying fertile hatching eggs. I am very specific in what I want to buy.I ask several questions from the seller or person that may have what I'm interested in,including asking for pictures of the parents where the eggs are coming from.With some of my purchases close to or exceeding the $100 price tag for 12 eggs,getting a few answers and maybe a few pictures should not be an issue for the seller.
    My issue has to do with the end result,,the hatched chick from the sellers eggs.One prominate seller that likes to lay the eggs on their side when shipping(I started a thread about this earlier) also as I am finding out,does not breed true.And the facts and pictures they show representing the parent stock cannot be correct.Their ad clearly states all the eggs they sell,comes from ALL feathered shanked adult birds and with French Marans this is one of the most easily distinguishable characteristics of the breed.
    Out of the few that I did manage to hatch from this seller,,not 1 bird has so much as "fuzz" on the legs or feet.And now as time goes on,the only rooster I hatched from this same person,is developing a very nice Carnation style comb,,proving Penedesenca has been used in their so called "pure" Marans to increase egg color.
    I don't think it was the actual seller that my eggs came from that has outcrossed but the volume of eggs they sell as hatching eggs, I'm sure I'm not the first and only person that has had these issues with them.But I do have a very,very good idea of which self proclaimed expert in the French Marans breed did the crossbreeding because I have witnessed other birds that had genetic '"odditities" that do not compare to anything in the Marans breed whatsoever.
    So how do you handle not gettting what you have paid for? You pay dearly for a supposedly "pure" strain of chickens,and aside from poor hatch rates,poor postal service handling and the box may be beat up,the end result is not what was advertised.
    I only have French Marans and do not have to worry about a stray rooster getting into another pen.But we do,and are keeping bloodlines straight here.Even within the exact same variety,the bloodlines are being kept seperated so 1.) we can increase those numbers and always have a "pure" distinct bloodline 2)linebreed these birds to improve on breed standard.
    Should you demand a full re-payment for what you paid for the eggs? Just because one hatched bird shows breed outcrossing,still does not necessarily mean the birds that all look "pure" somewhere down the road will throw a hidden genetic trait that shows the same outcrossing,be it in one or 5 generations later on.
    For our goals here in keeping pure lines,any signs of outcrossing of even one bird makes me question all the birds hatched from that one seller,and cannot be considered pure anymore,and was not what I paid for.
    Is this not false advertising? Is this internet fraud? And since the US Postal service was employed to ship these eggs to you,is this now a federal offense as well? That may be taking it a bit far,but eggs that are not as stated when hatched out,to me are of a value the same as store bought eggs,let alone the $14.95 for shipping,and the premium price close to $10 per egg.
    I'm sure I'm not the only one this has happened to before.So how did you handle it? Did the seller make it right with you,and offer you a full refund? Including postage?
    When your breed and bloodline specific as we are,I expect "pure" blood and "pure" genetics from that bloodline,nothing less.If the seller insures me before the purchase what I will recieve is just that,"pure",,once they recieve payment this constitutes a contract between buyer and seller,,and in my opinion is considered fraud if anything occurs that is less than declared before the sale.
     
  2. Mojo Chick'n

    Mojo Chick'n Empress of Chickenville

    Hmmm... tough post to answer.

    On the one hand, I understand why you are upset and admit that it sounds like you may have been scammed (if, indeed, the person knew the parent stock was not pure - they may be clueless as well).

    On the other hand, it is also a case of "buyer beware". If I were spending that much on eggs (not that I would) I would want more proof than an emailed pic of the parent birds - I (as a seller) can send any picture I find online and claim they are my birds, but if you go and see for yourself, there can be no mistaking.

    I don't know if there is a basis for fraud charges. That would be a question for legal council.

    I'm sorry you didn't get what you paid for.

    meri
     
  3. Katy

    Katy Flock Mistress

    First I'd like to say that I ship eggs and I lay them on their sides. It really doesn't matter how we put them in the box...the machines & people handling the packages are going to put them on the conveyor belt any which way anyway.

    The BC Marans became such a fad item that I think except for a few breeders for the most part people were hatching eggs like most hatcheries do.....quantity over quality. Now people who didn't exactly get what they thought they were buying in order to also make some money are crying foul.

    Does this constitute fraud? No, I don't think so. The person you got your eggs could very well be stating what they know as fact about their birds.
     
  4. frenchblackcopper

    frenchblackcopper Chillin' With My Peeps

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    East central Illinois
    Mojo, your points are well taken.But using the internet as a way of commerce,using the internet to advertise what you have to sell really only gives a few options,,pictures or short videos,and as you stated,any picture can be used.But as far as going and seeing for myself,,to guarantee getting what I am paying for with hatching,fertile eggs is still not possible,,1)because I would have to actually stay there and watch the correct hen lay the egg,,2) be there the entire month after and while the hen is being bred consistanly to the correct rooster.
    Katy,if eggs are shipped 1-2 day express-priority they are supposed to be handled by people,,not that it happens,,but as in my thread earlier on shipping eggs sideways,upside down,ect.,,gravity always pulling the 50 or so grams of yolk and white weight against a less than paper thin air sack membrane is asking for problems,plain and simple. About the person posting what they know about their birds as being fact,their ad states,"all feathered shanked adult birds"and this dominate trait will easily carry on to offspring,anymore when I ask a seller about feathered shanks and they say "yes",I then ask for a picture.I notice on so many ads for so called "French Marans" the legs and feet of the Marans in the picture used to advertise the parent stock,is cut off,or the picture was taken at mid thigh level on the bird.
    If people sell fertile eggs,then they should at least hatch out several batches each year to check fertilitity and after doing so,will see for themselves first hand what the chicks looks like,and what they develope into,correct? I can't believe of the few that I hatched from this seller,all of mine were naked legged and noone else they have ever sold to has hatched the same,,or am I special?
     
  5. Katy

    Katy Flock Mistress

    Quote:Well if your thoughts on eggs laying on their sides not being a good thing, you might want to relay that message on to all the broody hens who have their eggs laying on their sides and as a rule get much better hatches than we humans can ever hope to. I have yet to see a broody hen balancing her eggs big end up. So that is an issue I think you can quit worrying about. Yes, shipping adds a whole other issue for eggs, but I don't think it's the laying on their sides that hurts them.

    I pretty much continually have my bators going with the same eggs that I'm sending out to people so I know my eggs are fertile and hatchable when they leave my hands.

    It is a risk you take buying eggs on the internet. If you aren't willing to risk it then I'd say you need to find another avenue to get your eggs thru. Unfortunately there are dishonest people selling everything, but there are a lot of honest sellers too.

    You could go to a show...buy the winners of that show...take them home and hatch their eggs and still end up with birds that aren't what you'd hoped for. Most breeders hatch hundreds of birds every year just to get the few that measure up to be added to their flocks or taken to shows.
     
  6. frenchblackcopper

    frenchblackcopper Chillin' With My Peeps

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    East central Illinois
    Katy, I realize the hen has the eggs on their sides while she is sitting on them,,but while the clutch of eggs is being laid,those eggs aren't dropped 2 feet onto a conveyor,or thrown into a huge postal bag or into the back of a truck.Eggs under a sitting hen does not compare to the stress and vibrations caused by shipping and is not relevant here.There is no comparision between the two.But shipping eggs air sack down,,???????
    When I get 4 outta 12 eggs that hatch, I'm not disappointed,,I know the risks and pay to accept those risks,one set of eggs numbering 8 dozen,we had 3 chicks that hatched,well worth it because of distance and bloodlines,but when what does hatch out clearly is not the same breed of chicken genetics that I was sold,,is another story.
     
  7. Katy

    Katy Flock Mistress

    Quote:And that is my point....that box is going to be dropped and put on it's side ...or top numerous times during shipping....so even if a person packed them big end up they are not going to remain that way throughout shipment. You were originally complaining because they were packed laying on their sides...now you have switched it to air sac down.

    I'm not sure of the seller who you're referring to, nor the bloodline you thought you were buying. I do feel like some of the supposed good breeders were not nearly as knowledgable and hadn't even really been breeding that breed very long and all of a sudden they were experts. If someone had only had their birds for a year or so I think people put way too much stock in the birds/eggs they were selling. I'm just glad I don't care for the BCs and never was tempted to buy any of them.
     
  8. DTchickens

    DTchickens Overrun With Chickens

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    I didn't read all the posts but- In my opinion...

    They said the birds came from feather legged stock, they did not say what the chicks would come out as so they were not exactly dishonest. They could have done like i would have done and added all the information they could saying chicks may hatch out clean legged, and that they've added Penedesencas, but then they wouldn't sell a thing because people get too caught up on what is pure. When the truth is there isn't a bird out there today, and if there is, whoever owns it is a very good breeder.. You look at photos and characteristics of breeds during the 1800s, or even 1900s, and you will see a dramatic change in them. The only ones i haven't so far is gamefowl (and even they have some, depends), and most old breeds that have died out but hold on by a select few who breed them.

    Our "American old english bantams" are a exact example of this. People look for "Pure old english" but do not know that dutch has been added, as well as rosecomb, and sebrights in the silver laced/buff laced/golden laced varieties. The dutch was added to help with bring in the lavender color and rosecomb for feather length i heard..

    Now, i say this.. If you're not satisfied with your chicks you hatch out, notify the seller with your reasons, and if they don't do anything i say brush it off (because you probably wouldn't win, if they know how to use loop holes anyway, and i didn't see anything that really pointed to internet fraud etc.), and find you a breed club.. Find someone who raises them and get birds from them, it is rare you will find quality birds in a hatchery, a auction/flea market, or Ebay. 90% of the time those people on ebay have horrible stock and are just like the people at a flea market, just out to make a buck. Nothing more...
     
  9. SunnyD

    SunnyD Out Of The Brooder

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    Quote:I don't see anywhere in your posts that you have talked to the breeder that sold you the eggs. If that's true, try calling them an explaining your situation and give them a chance to make it right. I know in my businesses in the past, if a customer explained why they might not be pleased with their purchase and wasn't angry, threatening or had some preconceived notion of how I would treat them, I would do whatever they thought was fair.
     
  10. catwalk

    catwalk Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 19, 2009
    I'm going to disagree with everyone here. A lie is a lie, whether it is to your face or behind the anonymity of a computer screen. You have proof that the chick you hatched from the breeder's eggs are not purebred. You were told that they were. The breeder either knew about the crossbreeding or he didn't, and ignorance of this fact is not an excuse to deny it. Yes, you might have done more research and asked for references, current photos (chicken standing on today's newspaper), etc.. But if someone is determined to deceive you, there is not much you can do to defend yourself. After the fact, you can ask for replacements or a refund. If he is a savvy buisnessman, he'll know that bad news travels much faster than good, and he'll make it worth your while not to speak your dissapointment publicly. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. But as such, we owe it to each other to help, encourage, and correct each other, not deceive, cheat, and swindle. I understand the concept of "Buyer Beware," but that applies to used cars and cheap horses, not internet (or other venue) rats.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009

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