Hurrah for British Dressage Riders!!!

[welsummerchicks]

Fuego was a little disappointing to me, tighter reins, and Fuego did not like that!

I didn't see any tight reins in this ride. I watched his entire ride, from start to finish. No tight reins. Far quieter and more technically correct than at WEG, and much less over-riding (Flamboyance).

I think the thing I like best about Carl Hester is that he's going about it the correct way:

He is fortunate to be riding such a nice horse.

But he also commented that his and Charlotte's horses are 'non-controversial' - many horses have won by having very good scores in 1-2 movements(especially movements that are repeated in the test, like piaffe and passage), but having less good scores for other movements. These horses at Euro champs are more consistently scoring well on more different movement. Totilas got high scores in passage but low scores in extended trot- these horses are getting more better scores.

Uthopia got his low scores in the exact opposite things as Totilas used to. But Totilas is with a new rider now, and his work has also become better in areas where he was weak.

nose NOT behind the ve)rtical! That's probably why he got a 10 on extension.

No, that's not why he got a 10. That is only one of a great many things the horse must do to get a 10 on extension. Ten means 'excellent' and there are many qualities that go to make up an excellent - especially the forward reach over the ground and the purity of the gait (for extended trot, pure gait = 2 beat trot), but the rhythm, suppleness - it's many things.

He was actually going forward!!!!! And beautifully, too! All comes down to his delightful self-carriage.

Dressage horses can go very well forward with their nose slightly behind the vertical, that is an acceptable training posture for certain types of conformation/responses when in motion, and more experienced trainers are able to use that position to benefit. It's ok in training if it is done for a purpose and only a slight degree, but in the show ring the horse is expected to be slightly in front of or on the vertical. If the horse momentarily drops behind the vertical in competition, that is not so bad, but if it is more continuously or markedly behind the vertical that is a problem.

The serious deduction from the score comes when the rider didn't ask the horse to do it, and can't get the horse's nose out from behind the vertical. It's called being 'stuck'.

 

[seminolewind]

Well, I see you are another Dressage lover!!!! It's amazing to see what these horses do, (wish I could say it was amazing to ride them) But that will never happen.

Fuego: I still think he looked more "held" behind the vertical to get that more "correctness". It would have been nicer to see the hind end collect the horse into the rider's hand a bit more. I also have to forgive some of that because he is a stallion, because of their cresty neck, seem to appear to not "flex" at the poll-exactly.

You're right, I don't think it's just the nose behind the vertical, but on or slightly in front of the vertical is always my first sign of a horse being trained in a correct way. I know there is a whole lot more to do with it, but it starts with a correct frame. I think there are times when a rider has to use a bit of behind the vertical, but not the whole ride. I personally would rather see a correct foundation take a lower score than an incorrect frame take a higher score. What I see nowdays is judges rewarding incorrectness at some things, and trainers using the shortcut "rollkur" instead of going the longer more correct path.

I think I'm just "old school" , ie; Aherich, Marzog, etc.

Wellsummerchicks, it's nice to have someone bring up alot of "food for thought". I like hearing other opinions from people. Makes things interesting!

 

[welsummerchicks]

I am 'old school' too. I grew up admiring Klimke, Jensen, even saving my nickels and pennies to go see them teach a clinic.

As I mentioned, the riders lose points if their horse is behind the vertical during the test.

This has always been the case - from Klimke's time back, and forwards to now - this has always been considered an error - but it is one error possible among many.

However, it is useful to warm them up that way - in other words it can be useful if the rider is sufficiently skilled, but of course he needs to be able to change the posture at will - and especially before he rides his test.

On the other hand, what often happens with novices is rather different. They simply can't control the horse's head and neck at all. OFten there is too much rein pressure compared to the amount of energy created forward from the foreward aids. As a result the horse's head can get 'stuck' - in THIS case it's a really serious problem, and not something that benefits horse or rider. But it isn't exactly unusual for beginners - they're usually doing the best they can and will 'get it' better as time goes on.

My own horse benefits from a very slight positioning in warmup - as she was ridden incorrectly for some time, 'jammed' into the bridle. So her poll and muscles of the upper neck stiff and tight. She also gets her 3x a week massage - though every ride should really be as good as a massage - and woe be to the one who pauses that massage to chit chat with some lowly other human! She is the queen of the withering look....LOL!

Fuego generally has a very light contact, according to his rider and their coach Jean Bemelmans (a peer of Klimke) - it's difficult to get used to the very cresty Iberian horses, but they can be just as correct as other horses and can have a beautiful contact - one just has to make allowances for the shape of their neck.

But you're in good company - in the 1936 (I think) Olympic Games, Podhajsky recounts being marked down with his Lipizzaner (very similar cresty neck) for being 'too held in' as well. The judge scored down and wrote that the contact was too firm.

Podhajsky buttonholed the judge after, and insisted he ride the horse and experience the horse's contact for himself.

As the story goes at Podhajsky's insistence the judge finally clambored on in his street pants and shoes.

He pronounced the LIpizzaner's contact perfect and light - but declined to change the score!

Oh Well!!!! LOL.

 

[seminolewind]

Old school? Awesome!! Reiner Klimke was always my favorite, I even ended up buying a Hopfner saddle. I love watching the older vids I have (80's).

I was really surprised to see that Alelaide/Parzival ended up with Golds-I have just liked them the most over the last few years, it was a real nice shock to find out that they were finally on top! (where I think they should be).

Podhajsky-wouldn't Lipizzans on the Iberian side as well? (Oops, I should have read your comment more thoroughly, LOL)

Your mare must feel sooo much better now that she is in "kinder" hands.
If you've been to clinics with the greats, you are soooo lucky!
If Jane Savoie comes this way, I will def. go see her.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I just came from watching a really great clinic today and yesterday - with Steffen Peters. I don't think I could afford to ride in it...but there was a little 10 year old girl there, riding her paint pony with one blue eye - LOL!

SOMEONE'S mommy has good priorities - LOL!

Steffen Peters ran along side her to teach her - it was soooooooo cute!

He is very fit and he ran along next to the pony first showing her what to do with the reins, and then letting her do it.

 

[seminolewind]

Wow, I heard that Steffen Peters gives good clinics. You sound like you have good access to these clinics. Lucky you!

 

[welsummerchicks]

I give up other things so that I can go.

It doesn't cost much to audit/spectate those things. I stayed in college housing for a third of what the cheapest most rundown hotels cost, and my meals were free.

 

[jettgirl24]

I would love to ride with Steffen... He was here a couple of months ago but I was out of town

I also LOVE auditing Conrad Schumacher. I am extremely fortunate that he clinics twice a year at a barn about 15 minutes away from mine. My instructor always rides with him when he's here as do several of my barn mates. I haven't yet been able to come up with the money to ride with him but I get so much out of auditing that I don't mind too much.

What I'm REALLY excited about right now though is the piaffe/passage clinic coming up next month with Alfredo Hernandez. I hear he's quite a character but spectacular at in hand work which I would really like to learn. My trainer and I have been working half steps with my horse to help him engage better from behind and it has been absolutely fantastic. His collected work has improved by a mile just in the last two or three weeks. I'm considering taking him to this but haven't decided for sure yet. If we don't go I'm definitely going to go audit though. I'll have to give a clinic report after I get back.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Jett, never go to any clinician without auditing first - never ever ever ever.

Woops - got to go get my Jefferson Davis Pie out of the oeven!!!

 

[jettgirl24]

Welsummer - That is my hesitation in going and is why I may hold off until next time on taking my horse. I have watched many, many videos of him working with horses and my very good friend and her trainer work with him a few times a year up here so I feel pretty comfortable with it but I still hesitate to go without seeing him myself in person so we shall see.