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Impossible colors and patterns

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Stumpfarmer, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. Stumpfarmer

    Stumpfarmer Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Googling around on the web I've been struck with the lack of blue spangled chickens- that is, chickens with a blue ground color spangled with black. I'm beginning to suspect that is a genetic impossibility, and that you can have another-colored bird with blue spangling (Feathersite has a single pic of a blue-spangled gold Hamburg) but that attempts to breed a blue bird with black spangles would be confounded by the need to have BBS with whatever gene it is that produces spangling.

    I've poked around on the Chicken Calculator sufficiently to know that the brains of the person who designed it and my brain have fundamental differences, so if anyone could isolate the mechanics of those two lines of inheritance and tell me why my dream of crossing SSHs and Blue Ameraucanas to produce a blue bird with black spangles which lays turquoise eggs is a vain ambition, I'd be very appreciative.

    (What about Lavender? Would Lavender work?)
     
  2. catwalk

    catwalk Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 19, 2009
    Both lavender and blue dilute black, so it may be difficult to have them on the same bird. I'm interested to know if a gene's expression can be limited to a specific part of the bird, but I'm guessing that you couldn't get both on the same feather.

    On the other hand, I've seen black laced with gold, which I'm told is impossible, so whaddayaknow?
     
  3. Stumpfarmer

    Stumpfarmer Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Watching my SSH cockerel feather out has been interesting: the tips and distal rachis are black on all feathers, and there's a set of juvenile feathers where there's smutty black on the whole tailfeather or primary flight feather, but those are shed and replaced by clean white feathers with black tips. I'm curious about the developmental mechanism that causes that process and how it works out when the secondary feather color is other than white.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  4. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    Quote:only if you can change ground color(Gold and Silver) to a bluish color.....

    and Here I thought producing a Pink Bird was crazy..... Eumelanin can be change to many colors(Blue,white,Chocolate,Beige,kakhi) but Pheomelanin its Trickier, it can go from the Darkes Red(R.I.R) to plain white(Columbian Rock) and everything in between but to Blue..? I dare to say IMPOSIBLE.... but I´ve Been wrong before...I will love to be prooven wrong [​IMG]
     
  5. Stumpfarmer

    Stumpfarmer Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:only if you can change ground color(Gold and Silver) to a bluish color.....

    and Here I thought producing a Pink Bird was crazy..... Eumelanin can be change to many colors(Blue,white,Chocolate,Beige,kakhi) but Pheomelanin its Trickier, it can go from the Darkes Red(R.I.R) to plain white(Columbian Rock) and everything in between but to Blue..? I dare to say IMPOSIBLE.... but I´ve Been wrong before...I will love to be prooven wrong [​IMG]

    Blue's already a color in chickens- my icon shows my Blue Laced Red Wyandottes, and I was thinking of crossing Blue Ameraucana with Silver Spangled Hamburgs- the point being a blue bird with black spangles who would lay a turquoise or aqua egg (Hamburg eggs are cream). Blue chickens aren't Bluebird blue, nor Indigo Bunting blue, but rather sort of gunmetal or almost French Blue.

    This is the blue chicken thread that was started yesterday.
     
  6. GotGame

    GotGame Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I am currently breeding blue spangled OEGB and I have noticed that when you introduce the blue spangle to a straight spangle, even when the straight spangles have real strong black barring between base color and the white spangle, the blue spangles from those birds do not have any black barring, at all, whatsoever. Thinkin it will be a genetic improbability. I am not aware of any version of black that isnt diluted by andalusian blue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  7. phasianidae

    phasianidae Chillin' With My Peeps

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    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  8. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    Quote:only if you can change ground color(Gold and Silver) to a bluish color.....

    and Here I thought producing a Pink Bird was crazy..... Eumelanin can be change to many colors(Blue,white,Chocolate,Beige,kakhi) but Pheomelanin its Trickier, it can go from the Darkes Red(R.I.R) to plain white(Columbian Rock) and everything in between but to Blue..? I dare to say IMPOSIBLE.... but I´ve Been wrong before...I will love to be prooven wrong [​IMG]

    Blue's already a color in chickens-

    Time for Genetic 101 from Tim.. [​IMG]

    let me see if I can help....


    Ok.. here is my Edit...

    Ground color can be based only on Silver(S) or Gold(s+) and the mix of them(on Males) S/s+ there is no Blue ground color(Pheomelanin)
    http://books.google.com.ni/books?id...ics&hl=es&pg=PA135#v=onepage&q=Silver&f=false
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  9. smoothmule

    smoothmule Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Agreed here too. Blue dilutes all that is black from what I understand so I don't know how it could be possible. You can't have a blue with any black on it or the blue isn't blue. So, if you wanted something visually blue with black spangling, then you would have to find something that would give you the appearance of blue, that isn't genetically blue, in order for the spangles to remain black and everything I can think of would dilute black so there you go...back to the start, it can't be done.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Stumpfarmer

    Stumpfarmer Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Yeah, that was what I was afraid of. I may still work on a Ameraucana/SSH project, because the idea of a Hamburg laying blue eggs sounds cool. There's someone local to me who's breeding Lavender Hamburgs, so I know that it's possible to reduce the gene on the spangling with a silver ground-color, which may be the next step to consider.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011

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