Inheritance of Silver Pied

Discussion in 'Peafowl' started by AquaEyes, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    I'm copying and pasting my post about how I think Silver Pied is inherited. This was on the "Indigo" thread, but I thought that by separating it out, others could see it more clearly and discuss. I don't know if this is for sure how Silver Pied works, but this is the conclusion I'm coming to based on what I've learned. Please post to correct me if I am wrong. Thanks in advance.

    [​IMG]


    Quote:OK, I'm going to have a stab at the white genes...PLEASE correct my mistakes.

    [​IMG]

    If a bird is IB split to White (no other mutation), then it looks basically like an IB with a little white on the throat, maybe some white wing feathers.

    If a bird is homozygous for White, then it is solid white.

    If a bird is IB split to Pied (no other mutation), then it looks a lot like an IB split to White.

    If a bird is homozygous for Pied, then it is about 50-50 white and pigmented.

    If you're saying that White and Pied are alleles, then perhaps the "loud pied" birds have one copy of White, and one copy of Pied (thus they don't have a normal copy of the gene that's present in regular IB). Because each gene seems to be able to change phenotype when heterozygous, perhaps when the two are together you get more pigment removed than if you had just one. I'm thinking that the two genes act as "erasers" and having one copy of each is like adding together the "erase marks" of each.

    White-eyed is another "eraser" gene, and if it's had homozygously along with one copy of Pied and one copy of White, you have "almost complete erasing." If this is the case, then the "loudest" silver pieds would be:

    Homozygous for White-Eye

    Heterozygous for Pied

    Heterozygous for White


    If White and Pied are alleles, then it's impossible to be homozygous for Pied AND have the White gene -- because the two available slots for the White gene are occupied by the two copies of Pied.

    The 1:2:1 ratio is classic Mendelian genetics, resulting from a single-trait hybrid cross (Ww X Ww = 25% WW, 50% Ww, 25% ww). If this pattern is what you get when crossing silver pied X silver pied, then "Silver Pied" must be a heterozygous phenotype (like Andalusian Blue in chickens). The difference is that instead of the "other" gene in the heterozygote being the "normal" version, it is another mutation. This would also explain why the whites out of Silver Pied are different from other whites -- the ones from Silver Pied are genetically White-Eyed Whites.


    ETA -- If White and Pied are alleles, this could explain the different degrees of "pied" phenotypes. (Again, please correct me if you know what I say to be incorrect...I'm not really sure about how these work in peafowl, but am simply posting hypotheses based on genetic principles).

    IB split Pied = IB with small amount of white markings

    Homozygous Pied = about 50-50 white and IB in coloration

    IB split White = IB with small amount of white markings

    Homozygous White = solid white peafowl


    If the above is correct, it would seem that White and Pied act as erasers, but White is a "bigger eraser" than Pied. If they are alleles, then a bird that has one copy of White and one copy of Pied will have more "erased" than a bird that has two copies of Pied, but less than a bird that has two copies of White, and thus you have "loud pied."

    White-eyed is recessive, and needs to be carried homozygously (i.e., the bird has two copies of White-eyed to show the pattern). If both parents are homozygous for White-eyed, then so will all the offspring. In such a case, you can leave that gene off when calculating offspring, because they all will have it.

    So Silver Pied is a loud-pied (one copy of White and one copy of Pied) with the addition of being homozygous for White-eyed. Breeding Silver Pied X Silver Pied, you'd get:

    25% White/White (two copies of White-eyed, two copies of White) White-eyed (the "Whites" out of "Silver Pied", thus "White-eyed Whites")

    50% White/Pied (one copy White, one copy Pied, aka "loud pied) White-eyed (which all together = "Silver Pied")

    25% Pied/Pied (two copies of Pied, aka "dark pied") White-eyed (all together = "Pied White-eyed")


    What I'd need to learn is the difference in appearance between birds. I'm thinking that, in terms of least-white to most-white, they go: IB split Pied, IB split White, Dark Pied (homozygous Pied), Loud Pied (one copy White, one copy Pied), White (two copies White). Then adding the White-eyed gene (which needs two copies to show) to the Loud Pied gives Silver Pied -- the "whitest" except for White. I'd need to see what the White-eyed gene does to each of the steps along the way to be sure. According to my hypothesis, these are the ways genetically to get a bird "with white spotting somewhere" (not including the "turning-white" gene).

    I can think of a gene interaction in cockatiels that provides a parallel. One difference is that these genes are on the Z chromosome, so only males can have both genes. The mutations in question are Lutino (all melanin "erased") and Australian Platinum (all melanin "diluted"), and they are alleles (i.e., they occupy the same "slot" on the chromosome). Males need two copies of either mutation to show, because they have two Z chromosomes. If you cross a Lutino with an Australian Platinum, the male offspring are what's called "Platino." One Z chromosome has Lutino, the other has Platinum, and because they are alleles, there is no "normal" version to dominate either. "Platino" cockatiels are lighter than Australian Platinum, but not as light as Lutino. I'm thinking that, similarly, "White/Pied" peafowl have more white than "Pied/Pied" but less than "White/White."


    I think I'd rather stick to the ones with no white.....although I think that a Spaulding Bronze Blackshoulder White-Eye (with no Pied or White genes) would be rather stunning.

    [​IMG]

    Quote:
     
  2. deerman

    deerman Rest in Peace 1949-2012

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    birds split to pied, don't look like birds split white.


    pied x ib =chick both split white and split pied ,so to get pied from these chicks breed one with white flights to one that doesn't have white flights(split pied)


    Dark pied do look like birds that are split white.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  3. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:I'm thinking that "Dark Pied" and "Pied" are different genetically. This is what I think:

    Dark Pied has 2 Pied genes.

    Pied has 1 Pied gene and 1 White gene.

    White has 2 White genes.

    If this is true, then Dark Pied X Dark Pied will not produce any White, because neither Dark Pied parent has a White gene. Similarly, White X White will not produce any Pied, because neither White parent has a Pied gene.

    However, what we call "Pied" (or "Loud Pied") is really split to White and Pied. It has 1 White gene, and 1 Pied gene. According to what Kev said, Pied and White are alleles (in other words, the two genes are in the same slot on the chromosome...so there are three choices for that slot -- Pied, White, or Normal).

    In this case, Pied X Pied would give 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White. Dark Pied X White = 100% Pied (these birds get 1 Pied gene from one parent, and 1 White gene from the other).

    Think of the Pied and White genes as two different kinds of erasers. You said that Dark Pied look like birds split to White. I'm thinking that the White gene is a bigger eraser than the Pied gene. So, from darkest to lightest, it would go:

    1) IB (0 Pied & 0 White genes) --> 2) IB Split to Pied (1 Pied & 0 White genes) --> 3) IB Split to White (0 Pied & 1 White genes) --> 4) Dark Pied (2 Pied & 0 White genes) --> 5) Pied (1 Pied & 1 White genes) --> 6) White (0 Pied & 2 White genes)


    Does this make sense?


    Basically, you follow the same pattern with Silver Pied, except that the bird also has 2 copies of the White-Eyed gene. So in the White-Eyes, you'd get (from darkest to lightest):

    1) IB White-Eyed --> 2) IB White-Eyed split to Pied --> 3) IB White-Eyed split to White --> 4) IB White-Eyed Dark Pied --> 5) White-Eyed Pied (aka Silver Pied) --> 6) White-Eyed White


    So if Silver Pied is really a bird with 1 Pied gene, 1 White gene, and 2 White-Eyed genes, then to get 100% Silver Pied, you need parents which will make only this combination. Thus one parent must have 2 Pied genes and 2 White-Eyed genes, and the other parent must have 2 White genes and 2 White-Eyed genes.

    Think of the human ABO blood types. If one parent is homozygous A (AA) and the other parent is homozygous B (BB), then all their children will be AB. Think of Dark Pied as AA and White as BB. Pied is thus AB. And Silver Pied is AB with the addition of being homozygous for White-Eyed.
     
  4. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    I think the confusion about it all is that there is a "Pied gene" and a "Pied peafowl."

    What we call a "Dark Pied peafowl" is a bird with 2 Pied genes.

    What we call a "Pied peafowl" is a bird with 1 White gene and 1 Pied gene.

    So genetically, a "Pied peafowl" is really IB split to White and Pied.

    When you add in the White-Eyed gene, a "Silver Pied peafowl" is really IB White-Eyed split to White and Pied.

    If you identify birds based on their genotype rather than coming up with a new name for a genetic combination, it makes calculating offspring in breeding much easier.

    ETA -- In other words, there is no "Silver Pied gene." To make a "Silver Pied peafowl" you need a combination of three different genes -- 1 Pied gene, 1 White gene, and 2 White-Eyed genes.


    I hope this clears things up for some people....

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  5. deerman

    deerman Rest in Peace 1949-2012

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    Remember white eye is co-dominant as only one bird need to be white eye out of the pair to produce white eye. so don't think you need 2 white eye genes.
     
  6. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:See, I continue to learn. I thought that you DID need 2 copies. Ugh...the information on websites is just not that accurate, I suppose. So Deerman...you're saying that if a peafowl has 1 copy of White-Eye, it shows the trait? Or is it like White and Pied, in that you see some white eyes, but not all eyes are white? I'm still thinking that the "loudest silver pied peafowl" will have two copies of White-Eye, and since that seems to be all the rage, then breeding birds with two copies will give that result. What does a bird with only 1 copy of the White-Eyed gene look like, compared to a bird with 2 copies? Do you have a pic of an IB split to White-Eyed, and another pic of an IB White-Eyed?

    [​IMG]

    P.S. This is why I didn't learn about these genes before...and also, I prefer seeing the color rather than all the white feathers. But that's just crazy me.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

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    What we call a "Dark Pied peafowl" is a bird with 2 Pied genes.

    What we call a "Pied peafowl" is a bird with 1 White gene and 1 Pied gene.

    So genetically, a "Pied peafowl" is really IB split to White and Pied.

    Right, if you assume that pied and white are alleles. I've read and been told that through the years.

    When you add in the White-Eyed gene, a "Silver Pied peafowl" is really IB White-Eyed split to White and Pied.

    Been told/implied to me back when shopping for silver pieds. As mentioned before, already had lots of both White eyed split white and White white eyed hens so decided to get just a male instead of a pair for this reason- just put him with those hens It seemed to make perfect sense...

    Here's the problem:

    Silver pied male bred with White eyed split white

    Silver pied male bred with White white eyed

    The above has been done with two different silver pied males with same results. No silver pied, almost all pied offspring had "minimal white"- having one or more of: white on primaries, arm section of wing(seconaries on majority were colored), streak/band on upper/mid neck, white spot on top of head, a small/medium streak over the tail coverts. Very, very few had any white on the back or tail section, though- most had the backs and tails fully colored, having white only on wings/neck/head. In other words- it was a lousy cross for producing pieds of ANY type... [​IMG]

    People talk of whites from silver pieds for silver pied matings or pricing them differently. But what is it exactly that's different about those? If it's a simple matter of them being White eyed, how come no silver pieds from above?

    As for white eyed, yep got white eyeds from white eyed bred with wild type for this trait. Been consistent through many birds and crosses.​
     
  8. deerman

    deerman Rest in Peace 1949-2012

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    White eye is odd , i have a blackshoulder pied white eye(not silver pied) as a 3 yr old he only had a few white eye as a 5 yr old he has alot white eye feathers. The charcoal white eye i sold Yoda , had no white eye feather at 2 yr, few as a 3 yr old. so for some reason not all white eye peacocks have same number of white eye feathers. Some will have a few others will have all white eye train feathers.


    So not all birds carring white, pied ,and white eye genes are silver pied, but all silver pied do have all three.


    Also my peach white eye peacock at 3 yr everyone of his train feathers had white eye.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  9. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:Is it possible that the birds that are slow to get white eyes have only one copy of the gene, and the ones with more white eyes have two copies?
     
  10. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

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    Quote:What's the difference between these two, genetically? What is it exactly about silver pied that the birds "carrying white, pied and white eye genes" are lacking, or?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011

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