Is this a cream legbar rooster?

Discussion in 'What Breed Or Gender is This?' started by redguinea, May 28, 2016.

  1. redguinea

    redguinea Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I got given a rooster and am not sure of his breeding, the only breed that looks a bit like him is the cream legbar. He doesnt have as big of tail feathers as the cream LB's ive seen online. Please excuse the pics he isnt the friendliest of animals and can run quite fast. Any suggestions of breed or cross breeds he could be would be appreciated.
     
  2. microchick

    microchick Overrun With Chickens

    Do you know how old he is? Looks a lot like a Legbar but if he is young he may not have developed sickle tail feathers yet.

    Taking a second look at the pics, it's hard to tell but it looks like he hasn't developed long spurs yet so I'd say he is still pretty young.
     
  3. redguinea

    redguinea Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I think he is about 8-10 months old. I hadnt heard of cream legbars and thought I should try to see if he was a pure bred, I think I'll keep him either way. Ive havent seen any other breed that looks like him nor seen any legbars in Australia.
     
  4. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Hi redguinea !

    I love Australia.

    Here's my guess about your rooster....He probably is a mix that contains some of the traits of CL or closely related to a 'gold-legbar", which is an admirable breed of itself. He seems to have some characteristics of "Legbar" -- being the barring, and the duckwing pattern, yelllow legs and beak and single comb. I think he is a beautiful bird too BTW.

    Where he differs from a Cream Legbar is that he doesn't have a crest. -- The crest is a breed requirement in the UK and in the USA. Also if you look very closely at the triangle that shows at the very tip of his wings when they are folded (or would the the secondaries if you were to extend his wing ) -- it appears almost black. this would be cream colored and barred on a cream legbar and is the real 'tell' for the underlying genetics supposedly. Some folks have a white triangle there and call it cream -- and some have a brownish triangle which would indicate a gold bird.

    There are gold and sliver legbars that were in Aust. Someone named "Nick" in Back yard poultry forum -- had them -- and there is also Terry in Aust who is trying to get Cream Legbars going....you can find a link to his site -- well -- here it is:
    http://www.creamlegbarsite.com/

    Just checking this site, I see that Terry's birds have drifted quite a bit from the USA's proposed Standard-of-perfection -- where the crest is not supposed to obstruct the vision, the comb is single comb upright, and the females have a salmon breast with barred neck-hackles containing a lighter color, and the males have a very dark breast... - but perhaps some information there may help you.

    And here is some Legbar information that was posted by Nick:
    http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?t=7967614

    also looked at the post in Backyard Poultry Forum -- and I know that some of Nick's birds have a more Welsumer appearance than the birds in the USA -- but that appearance is echoed in some of the UK birds.... interesting how the breed 'translates' in different countries. -- as I'm sure all breeds do.

    Both those sites are in Aussie-land. The one with Nicks- silver and gold legbars dates back a long time -- check the wing triangles for the color cue for birds that are based on the wild-type on E-Locus genetically. the black wing triangle may indicate a different (other than wild-type) -- gene influencing his color.

    He is gorgeous though what ever he is. I would say he is a double-barred crele bird and looks very pretty.

    Good luck with finding your answers!!
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  5. redguinea

    redguinea Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Hi thanks for replying. I had a feeling he was a mix. I hoping to eventually get an autosexing breed but I guess I cant use him. I did incubate two of his eggs crossed over with an isa brown layer and the chicks look like a plymouth rocks.
    Thanks for linking info on the breed, I enjoy reading about other breeds. I have noticed a difference in my Rhode Island Reds compared to the US. Mine have a heavier frame and the roosters here don't have such long tail feathers.

    I think in Australia there is the most limited of bloodlines of rare breeds so breeders can only go so far to improve their birds before they either add a new breed in or keep going and birds start being extremely closely related. Breeds like the French wheaten maran have magically appeared in Australia, so someones found a way to hide eggs from the border security, but all of the birds in Australia must have come from the smuggled eggs because they have so many problems. I brought 6 FWM pullets and one by one they died off, and I had they housed with RIR pullets the same age and they were completely fine and laying now. Also brought FWM eggs and the birds never looked 100% healthly, I only kept the best pair the rest were dog meat. Australia harsh bio laws, I wish I could order eggs from the US, you guys have such a range of poultry I could only dream of!
     
  6. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    I know what you mean...my Silverudd's Blue Isbars are a very inbred breed - because they are so rare...and they don't have the vigor and longevity of my other breeds. But I want to work to maintain that breed too.

    I'm thinking that you are started down the right path for your autosexing. The male with double barring will pass a white head spot to his male offspring -- and a female that was duckwing would give the wild-type. And that is what is required. Wildtype females are recognizable by their salmon-colored breasts. -- Brown leghorn is one example of a breed that would fill that niche.
    So you would have to cross your barred guy to a regular female (e.g. brown leghorn) -- if you don't already have a legbar. All the chicks from that hatch would have only one barring gene. The females would then in theory be legbars -- they could be crossed back to the the double barred father and all the chicks thence forward would be gold legbars.

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  7. redguinea

    redguinea Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The things we do for the breeds we love!

    I'll have to get some brown leghorn hens to put him in with. I think he'll be happy to have some girls his own size. Thanks for all the advice, its a lot easier to have auto sexing birds then I dont have to raise a batch of roosters.
    I caught him to get some better pics , he wasnt very happy..


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  8. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    ;o)

    It was worth the catching~ He's a really nice looking bird IMO.

    Hopefully I'm right about the double barring. I know that some of the breeds in Aust for Barred Plymouth Rock are a bit different from the ones here in the states...and his barring is strong. Barring shows up in different ways in different breeds, so I am told. If he isn't double barred -- then there is another generation ahead of you. Because he would only have 1-barring gene. -- I see his body and wing barring very clearly -- then on his tail it is strong but not as strong as my backyard guys....

    Here is a double barred CL tail :

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    This guy is older than yours, and the white tail feathers are undesirable, his 'type' isn't good -- but his dispositin is -- He has a chestnut shoulder patch under that huge set of hackels opn his neck... and some people work to avoid that -- I want to keep it and make the pattern tighter and neater -- below that is a dark bar which is one of the things along with that lower wing triangle that I look for in a CL. -- His wing triangle is fairly light -- it is a pale color -- but not white.
    Here's his mom:
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    She is 4 1/2 years oold and still giving me a blue egg every-oter-day. You can see that she has bars in her tail -- and she is single-barred because females only hold place for one barring gene. Her 'underfluff' is barred too. doesn't show too well in this picture and her neck hackles are 'cream' --

    Both of these have a 'squirrel' tail -- their tail angles should be lower -- but they are always excited when I come around -- in their minds it means food! ;O) You will look for your females that show barring -- and the tail is the best place to verify IMO. --- You roo will definitely pass along barring to some if not all of his daughters, and by breeding them back to him if only some of the offspring have barring -- you will insure the double-factor of barring in some of your males. (I'm working on a project to introduce barring -- to a breed variety doesn't have any - so I'm thinking out my strategy/process over then next couple of breeding seasons.

    As imperfect as above male CL is -- I have had people over who look out the window and say 'that's the most beautiful rooster I ever saw' -- (not chicken people -- just workmen etc.) ---

    Here are a couple more picts to help zero in on the barring and wing triangle -- This roo is the friendliest CL that I have and he keeps coming as close as he can -- which makes for impossible photography just now...he too thinks I have treats for him. His duckwing pattern, and his good disposition earned him a place in the next breeding round of what I'm doing -- but he isn't a show-quality bird --
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    Better shot showing the wing-triangle
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    and last shot -- the grandfather of the guy that is shown in the other three - ETA - the fther was processed due to his mean disposition.
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    Looking a little 'rough' right now -- and he's 4 1/2 years old too......

    Not sure how well they are showing up -- but these guys have a crest under the very back of the blade of their combs. I would expect that unless you are able to get the cream gene into your flock that your flock will have a more saturated neck hackle and saddle feather area and I also think that the wing triangle will be darker.

    I'm kind of excited for where you are going. My suggestion would be to select the brown leghorns with the deep salmon breast to insure that they are wild type on the e-locus! -- Please do keep me up to date as you progress....oh -- and -- here's how your chicks should look:
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    The middle one and top two are male -- if you look really closely you can see the white splotch on the top of their heads. The females are identified by the distinct dorsal stripes.
    Here's a link to the breed guide thata few of us put together for the Cream Legbar Club a year or so ago:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GCI_f69Hd5P5w5m7GGUTCwH2Os6iWys9KqKHf2bJnk/edit

    You are so right to get an autosexing breed going -- it is great to know the chicks gender on hatch day!!
    If I can do anything to help - just let me know -- AND!!! keep me updated on your progress.
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    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  9. redguinea

    redguinea Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I hope you're right about the double barring, im not very patient so waiting another generation would be annoying, but I guess the more generations the more you can work with the birds and get an eventual product that you're happy with. Your boys are lovely, the son has a much nicer comb, or its just the angle?
    Shame you arent in a Australia, I'd just get some birds/eggs off of you and my problems would solved!

    The parents look good for their age! You're doing well to still be getting eggs. The hatchery type layers just dont last over a few years and become useless. A lot of internal problems too. Ive been crossing RIRs over isa browns, then crossing that back over the isa's to get a layer that is healthy and actually lays for 3-4 years instead of 1-2. They are a bigger build and at first I was getting a range of colours and sizes but now I have bred them to be more refined in their looks, I occasionally get a pure white out which is a throwback to the white leghorn that helped develop the isa brown. I like breeding for a purpose.

    Wish mine had a squirrel tail, mine is so girly..

    This might be a stupid question but could I use white leghorn hens or do they not carry the correct gene? Just asking because white leghorns are much more common.

    I can diffinatly see the difference between the genders. Hopefully I'll have success on the first batch and the colours will be prominent.

    It sounds harsh to most people but if I get the autosexing going then all cockerals will be killed at day olds. At first I'll keep everything to make sure the patterns are correct for the gender but after that its just not economical to grow so many roosters up.
     
  10. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    remember that your guy is young -- once his adult sickle feathers come in -- he will look more roosterly I'm sure---and those may have a more high-contrast barring.

    Thanks for the compliments on my chooks. -- The grandfather actually has a bit straighter comb-- but it is detached at the back (fly away comb) -- which allows the crest to grow -- and the comb and crest don't compete as badly -- That is one of the things about CL -- they are a breed, I was thinking this morning designed for the female side of the family and not the male side so much- It is problematic to have both a crest and a straight comb -- they fight it out for real estate on top the head and both comb and crest look funky most of the time. The reason he looks crooked is because he was giving it a good shake just then.

    You are so smart to breed in such a way to get the best of the ISA and to improve them with RIR. Very smart. Also the hard culling of males -- or of all chickens is probably the divider between a really good breeder and someone who is less serious about improvements..... Looking into the future for my project, I will have to do exactly the process you are describing -- and the F1s I will be developing won't be autosexing -- so I will have to grow the males out for awhile -- to be certain. What was nature thinking when she did this 50/50 thing anyway? we need more females than males. ;o\

    Nope - I don't think a white leghorn would work. I think white leghorn chicks are solid yellow fluff balls and wouldn't give you the chipmunk stripes........ And I know what you mean about the availability. Welsumer chicks would probably have the wild-type look -- but would have red-earlobes and a different leg color I believe. If you just wanted autosexing you could get it using them -- and the resulting breed you would develop would be welbars. -- and even Rhode Islands could be used -- and your autosexing breed would be Rhodebars -- but I don't know anything about them -- however, I think that there is a rhodebar thread here on BYC.

    Here is some info on Rhodebar -- and who knows -- maybe you are closer to that than you know! so instead of being a stupid question it is brilliant! :O) -- I think the autosexing in that case would be more like what we call a black sex-link (except it would go on for generations ) -- but I don't know how they are autosexed -- so I will be asking you sometime in the future. ;O)

    https://poultrykeeper.com/chicken-breeds/rhodebar-chickens/

    Rohdebar combination would use a red male over a barred female. so it may take your guy out of the loop - OR he could be the result of a red male over a barred female. dunno.
     

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