Is this coccidiosis

Sydney65

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"Gamebird Disease,A Gamebird Keeper's Guide" - out of UK.
“Slow absorption of yolk due to fasting has been reported...Moran and Reinhart (1980) observed that fasting led to a reduced uptake of yolk as compared to fully nourished birds. It was reported further that fasting favoured removal of moisture and lipid to a greater extent than protein while the converse was true if access to feed and water was permitted. Observations of Noy et al. (1996) also showed that yolk utilisation was more rapid in fed than in fasted chicks, suggesting that the transport of yolk through the intestine could be increased by the greater intestinal activity found in fed chicks.
Similar findings were observed by Santos and Silversides (1996) that starving chicks were unable to use the yolk sac nutrients, suggesting that yolk sac utilisation seems to be correlated with activation of the digestive system.”
"It is important to get birds to eat and not to rely on their yolk sac for two to three days. Birds need to eat to stimulate the use of their yolk reserves. I have a colleague who tells the story of visiting a unit to find no food out for the birds on day two, and on enquiring why he was told, ‘Well that’s what they have a yolk sac for isn’t it?’ if ever there was a fundamentally flawed rearing policy, that was it!"
This is the opposite of our methods of shipping @hatch bc they rely on yolk or leaving them in bator for x amt of time (exact amt I've seen varies from 24°-48° ) w/o foot or water.
 

CluckNDoodle

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"Gamebird Disease,A Gamebird Keeper's Guide" - out of UK.
“Slow absorption of yolk due to fasting has been reported...Moran and Reinhart (1980) observed that fasting led to a reduced uptake of yolk as compared to fully nourished birds. It was reported further that fasting favoured removal of moisture and lipid to a greater extent than protein while the converse was true if access to feed and water was permitted. Observations of Noy et al. (1996) also showed that yolk utilisation was more rapid in fed than in fasted chicks, suggesting that the transport of yolk through the intestine could be increased by the greater intestinal activity found in fed chicks.
Similar findings were observed by Santos and Silversides (1996) that starving chicks were unable to use the yolk sac nutrients, suggesting that yolk sac utilisation seems to be correlated with activation of the digestive system.”
"It is important to get birds to eat and not to rely on their yolk sac for two to three days. Birds need to eat to stimulate the use of their yolk reserves. I have a colleague who tells the story of visiting a unit to find no food out for the birds on day two, and on enquiring why he was told, ‘Well that’s what they have a yolk sac for isn’t it?’ if ever there was a fundamentally flawed rearing policy, that was it!"
This is the opposite of our methods of shipping @hatch bc they rely on yolk or leaving them in bator for x amt of time (exact amt I've seen varies from 24°-48° ) w/o foot or water.

I definitely agree with this one. I rarely ever leave mine in the incubator longer than 24 hours. Just because they can survive, doesn't mean they should be made to. For nervous new hatchers, the reason I like to make it clear that they can survive up to 72 hours without food and water after hatch is because they're often so nervous that they want to pull out wet chicks, lol.
I have a method to my madness for sure. I allow my chicks to fluff up before moving them to the brooder and to better protect the chicks that are actively hatching I only quickly open the incubator to remove the fluffy chicks if the actively pipped eggs have closed pips or if another chick just hatched. I leave the newly hatched, wet chick in the incubator when removing the fluffy ones and nothing stabilizes the humidity quite as quickly as a freshly hatched chick, lol.

On a side note, it doesn't sound like this is related to what you were experiencing though.
 

Sydney65

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I definitely agree with this one. I rarely ever leave mine in the incubator longer than 24 hours. Just because they can survive, doesn't mean they should be made to. For nervous new hatchers, the reason I like to make it clear that they can survive up to 72 hours without food and water after hatch is because they're often so nervous that they want to pull out wet chicks, lol.
I have a method to my madness for sure. I allow my chicks to fluff up before moving them to the brooder and to better protect the chicks that are actively hatching I only quickly open the incubator to remove the fluffy chicks if the actively pipped eggs have closed pips or if another chick just hatched. I leave the newly hatched, wet chick in the incubator when removing the fluffy ones and nothing stabilizes the humidity quite as quickly as a freshly hatched chick, lol.

On a side note, it doesn't sound like this is related to what you were experiencing though.
No, not related to last hatch, but sound advice going forward. Using this time before next game day to be better prepared & do better.
I might be playing the what if game, but of 8 eggs, 3 internally pipped on 9/29. By 10/2 1 had zipped abt 1/4 of the way then stopped, 2 of the 8 were dead for sure,& I decided to assist.
2 died minutes after I got them out, those had the bruised distended (but not THAT distended) belly. What I'm reading, that the bacteria was ON the shell, not IN, doesn't seem to hold true, or can it affect them that quickly? -OR, did the airhole I provided them with on 10/1 push the bacteria in? Though logically speaking, if that were it, the 3 that had internally pipped already should have been the 3 first affected.
I guess my question is, would the 4 that started off seemingly fine have died w/o hatching, either from bacteria or exhaustion, had I not assisted, given it was 3 days post internal pip for 3 of them & the other hadn't got that far. Did I react too soon or too late? -
It's quite the toss up; if they don't come out, they're going to die. But if they come out and the shell is contaminated, their going to die. Not berating myself or dwelling in it at this point, but looking ahead at what the best course of action is regarding assisting.
 

CluckNDoodle

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No, not related to last hatch, but sound advice going forward. Using this time before next game day to be better prepared & do better.
I might be playing the what if game, but of 8 eggs, 3 internally pipped on 9/29. By 10/2 1 had zipped abt 1/4 of the way then stopped, 2 of the 8 were dead for sure,& I decided to assist.
2 died minutes after I got them out, those had the bruised distended (but not THAT distended) belly. What I'm reading, that the bacteria was ON the shell, not IN, doesn't seem to hold true, or can it affect them that quickly? -OR, did the airhole I provided them with on 10/1 push the bacteria in? Though logically speaking, if that were it, the 3 that had internally pipped already should have been the 3 first affected.
I guess my question is, would the 4 that started off seemingly fine have died w/o hatching, either from bacteria or exhaustion, had I not assisted, given it was 3 days post internal pip for 3 of them & the other hadn't got that far. Did I react too soon or too late? -
It's quite the toss up; if they don't come out, they're going to die. But if they come out and the shell is contaminated, their going to die. Not berating myself or dwelling in it at this point, but looking ahead at what the best course of action is regarding assisting.

I am not a hands-off hatcher. If I see a need I will step in and assist but "when" to step in is something that is hard to explain, especially online when trying to interpret what someone else is seeing, but you will learn quickly as you continue to hatch that there are subtle signs when something has gone awry. Zipping halfway and stopping is one of those signs. It's not unheard of for them to take a short break while zipping (it's exhausting work to hatch!) but I don't think I've seen one rest longer than 30 minutes max in a healthy hatch. Also, once they start zipping there is nearly zero chance of helping too early because the chick should have absorbed all of the blood and yolk sack by the time it starts to zip. If they haven't absorbed everything and they're zipping, there is another cause (temps too high, bacterial overload, developmental/genetic issues).

On the subject of safety holes, were you making holes prior to them internally pipping? Making a safety hole prior to the internal pip increases the chances of the internal membrane drying/stiffening too much for the chick to be able to penetrate it for the internal pip so if making safety holes I suggest waiting until you at least know they are pipped internally.

5-29-20 Internally pipped Turkey.JPG


Making a hole in the shell that late in the game shouldn't be the cause of the bacterial issue though. This is part of why I suggest not washing eggs or if you wash them only dip them or pour over them WITHOUT rubbing because you really want to leave as much of the bloom intact as possible. This is the porous shell's defense against bacteria and no matter how careful we are to sterilize our incubators and wash our hands before handling, it's the bloom that protects them the most (this isn't to say it's impossible to hatch completely scrubbed clean eggs, I just feel it's less desirable. I've hatched old washed eggs that were in the fridge waiting to be eaten, so I know it's possible, lol). Incubators are warm and moist, the perfect breeding ground for bacteria.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating a bunch of stuff you already know. lol, I figure if I try to overexplain I might come across something helpful.
 

Sydney65

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Nop
I am not a hands-off hatcher. If I see a need I will step in and assist but "when" to step in is something that is hard to explain, especially online when trying to interpret what someone else is seeing, but you will learn quickly as you continue to hatch that there are subtle signs when something has gone awry. Zipping halfway and stopping is one of those signs. It's not unheard of for them to take a short break while zipping (it's exhausting work to hatch!) but I don't think I've seen one rest longer than 30 minutes max in a healthy hatch. Also, once they start zipping there is nearly zero chance of helping too early because the chick should have absorbed all of the blood and yolk sack by the time it starts to zip. If they haven't absorbed everything and they're zipping, there is another cause (temps too high, bacterial overload, developmental/genetic issues).

On the subject of safety holes, were you making holes prior to them internally pipping? Making a safety hole prior to the internal pip increases the chances of the internal membrane drying/stiffening too much for the chick to be able to penetrate it for the internal pip so if making safety holes I suggest waiting until you at least know they are pipped internally.

View attachment 2872200

Making a hole in the shell that late in the game shouldn't be the cause of the bacterial issue though. This is part of why I suggest not washing eggs or if you wash them only dip them or pour over them WITHOUT rubbing because you really want to leave as much of the bloom intact as possible. This is the porous shell's defense against bacteria and no matter how careful we are to sterilize our incubators and wash our hands before handling, it's the bloom that protects them the most (this isn't to say it's impossible to hatch completely scrubbed clean eggs, I just feel it's less desirable. I've hatched old washed eggs that were in the fridge waiting to be eaten, so I know it's possible, lol). Incubators are warm and moist, the perfect breeding ground for bacteria.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating a bunch of stuff you already know. lol, I figure if I try to overexplain I might come across something helpful.
Nope, you're doing great. 3 had internally pipped, 3 had not. By that point I knew I'd lost the other 2. In this batch, nobody was dry in any sense of the word. But the two that died immediately after, their heads were still stuck under the wing. They were chirping like mad but until I got that sticky slime peeled away, they couldn't move much.
Hmm...funny you struck on a subject I was looking up. -I haven't washed eggs, but was just wondering what one is to do if egg explodes in incubator. So far it seems like everyone cleans the bator and tosses the eggs back in.
 

CluckNDoodle

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Nop

Nope, you're doing great. 3 had internally pipped, 3 had not. By that point I knew I'd lost the other 2. In this batch, nobody was dry in any sense of the word. But the two that died immediately after, their heads were still stuck under the wing. They were chirping like mad but until I got that sticky slime peeled away, they couldn't move much.
Hmm...funny you struck on a subject I was looking up. -I haven't washed eggs, but was just wondering what one is to do if egg explodes in incubator. So far it seems like everyone cleans the bator and tosses the eggs back in.

Yes, in the case of exploding eggs you basically just hope for the best with the rest of the eggs. I've had some close calls but I keep a close eye on my hatches and so far haven't had one explode in there yet. It's a specific type of bacteria that creates a ton of excess gas that causes explosions, so not all stinky eggs with "pop". Watching for a sticky substance or ooze seeping through the shell are things to watch out for.

Did you also have exploding eggs?
 

Sydney65

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Yes, in the case of exploding eggs you basically just hope for the best with the rest of the eggs. I've had some close calls but I keep a close eye on my hatches and so far haven't had one explode in there yet. It's a specific type of bacteria that creates a ton of excess gas that causes explosions, so not all stinky eggs with "pop". Watching for a sticky substance or ooze seeping through the shell are things to watch out for.

Did you also have exploding eggs?
No, thank goodness, but the hairline cracks didn't leak anywhere bc they seemed to have started leaking and then sealed themselves with yes, a sticky substance, so mayhaps I was lucky in that regard.
 

CluckNDoodle

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No, thank goodness, but the hairline cracks didn't leak anywhere bc they seemed to have started leaking and then sealed themselves with yes, a sticky substance, so mayhaps I was lucky in that regard.

In the case with the cracks that makes sense though, that's the albumen rather than seepage from bacteria. There are several things that can be used to seal cracks and I've used many, but the leaky cracks are the most worrisome simply because that usually means they split through the membrane. On the flip side, I've had eggs with a little bit of dried albumen on the exterior of the shell because the hen was old and appeared to have leaked egg white through the porous shell. I think that was part of my "undesirable egg experiment" I'll go check.

Yep! In case you were wondering, lol.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...s-aka-the-undesirable-egg-experiment.1349529/
 

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In the case with the cracks that makes sense though, that's the albumen rather than seepage from bacteria. There are several things that can be used to seal cracks and I've used many, but the leaky cracks are the most worrisome simply because that usually means they split through the membrane. On the flip side, I've had eggs with a little bit of dried albumen on the exterior of the shell because the hen was old and appeared to have leaked egg white through the porous shell. I think that was part of my "undesirable egg experiment" I'll go check.

Yep! In case you were wondering, lol.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...s-aka-the-undesirable-egg-experiment.1349529/
Cool thread! OMG - the amount of wax on “Crackles”!!! :th
 

CluckNDoodle

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Cool thread! OMG - the amount of wax on “Crackles”!!! :th

Yeah, after candling the crack went a LONG way. I never should have tried to save it but I had already committed at the point I had realized it was a bad idea. 😅
I've had great success hatching cracked eggs with nail polish and I have some liquid bandage on hand now that I plan on using the next time I find a cracked egg. lol
 

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