Kimiko (AB discussion contd. here from the other post as requested)

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by dlhunicorn, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. dlhunicorn

    dlhunicorn Human Encyclopedia

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    Kimiko wrote:
    3) We have effectively hijacked this thread from the poor chicken who was ill--perhaps we should move antibiotic discussions to another thread?

    1)
    ...Cyn also requested this. A discussion on AB/no AB /treat or cull ... well my experience on that is to simply agree to disagree because that on is a big can of worms which has never been resolved as it is a matter of personal choice "... never the twain shall meet..." To keep the discussion friendly and informative ppl usually just state their standpoint and (solid source) information backing it up and let it go after that. Continually reposting the same info /standpoint when you do not add additional information to the discussion will usually be interpreted as argumentative and detrimental to the informative nature of this forum which is an international forum and as such will often include information on meds and treatments which may be illegal for use in food-producing animals in another country. I would dare to say that most members are aware of this but your pointing it out is fine... harping on it again and again is irritating.
    ...When someone brings you new information you can take or leave it, but this dialog here isn't constructive or conducive to helping anyone or encouraging new people with information to share.
    5) Are you guys always this tough on the newbies? I feel like I've been running defensive action since my 2nd post.

    One is also not always aware of information which may have been relayed through pm nor how well one member may know the OP of a post or other members participating in a thread (some may be well known to the group or to each other and some may not) so dont be so quick to make assumptions that you (personally) are being picked on ... often a subject or element thereof may have been a subject of discussion (sometimes heatedly so) in other threads that you might not be aware of. When your information is seemingly ignored then that is simply the nature of the participants in that thread to do so... it is not personal. Rest assured the the other thousands of members who have also read that post may take away the information you have given in another context or may use it to the purpose you intended when you posted it.
    ... End of story. Whether you agree with the science or not, it is the law. If you sell your eggs and have given your hens baytril, you are in violation. What you choose to do with that information is up to you--I just wanted to make sure people were aware the laws had changed. It's called informed consent, people. I'm not sure why this concept has been so completely misunderstood...

    I feel it is important not to step on a members right to communicate their information (in general or direction of the OP)as long as you simply address the information given and not the person giving it > IMO that is the key to keeping things informative and friendly (even when you post information or a standpoint which may directly contradict ). It is important to give accurate information and a URL to a solid source article (for instance from a veterinary or poultryscience (university) source) will make a huge difference in avoiding arguments.
    As you yourself stated "information" ,even when from a solid source can be outdated or even contended within the scientific community of specialists itself. NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE (not even laws > particularly when the laws allow off label use of meds). Indeed it is a question of personal responsibility and discussion on THAT point can best be avoided. You give your information and THAT is the end of the story and the responsibility as to how that person chooses to use the information is up to them. This is an internet forum for the exchange / discussion of information (international) and not a (USA)court of law.
    When someone brings you new information you can take or leave it, but this dialog here isn't constructive or conducive to helping anyone or encouraging new people with information to share.

    You have shared your information... others have shared theirs. What is not conducive is to argue about it.​
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  2. dlhunicorn

    dlhunicorn Human Encyclopedia

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    P.S. (and I do truly mean this ) [​IMG]
     
  3. adoptedbyachicken

    adoptedbyachicken Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Diana what you have to remember is that your not in the US so the laws quoted are not yours, however most members are and the location for most are under their avatar.

    Being a very international board we have to keep that in mind. I'm in Canada so the laws are not identical to the US, but at least we have some that are on the same pages.

    The other thing that changes are the studies. Often studies done in one country are more accepted in that country. Standardization for trials varies in how it's done. This is getting way better as international standards are being accepted, but still it has some take in explaining why this country does this/uses that medication for X problem and that country you can't or they just don't.
     
  4. dlhunicorn

    dlhunicorn Human Encyclopedia

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    The other thing that changes are the studies. Often studies done in one country are more accepted in that country. Standardization for trials varies in how it's done. This is getting way better as international standards are being accepted, but still it has some take in explaining why this country does this/uses that medication for X problem and that country you can't or they just don't.

    The research studies and 99.9 percent of the studies , research info (incl the one posted by the University of Georgia Poultry Science dept. on the AB posted in the other thread) meds and dosage info I post and have on file at my library are from the USA .... (Baytril doesnt change dosages according to the country and LD50 is the same for whatever country the bird resides in)...personally I have never noticed any difference or problems in poultry science research between countries as discussions on what is done with the info rarely comes up unless the study is specifically geared towards that (as the Univ. of Georgia study on AB was).​
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  5. hinkjc

    hinkjc Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

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    I will input my comments from Cyn's Managing flock 10 commandment post here..

    I will add a comment about the use of drugs and the dosing advice given on forums. As far as I know, we do not have a licensed veterinarian on BYC (if we do, I'd like to hear from them). Any advice given is at the sole discretion of the person giving and the person receiving. Keep in mind that most antibiotics and wormers have not been approved by the FDA for use in poultry. Using them in many cases may even be illegal.

    I know people don't like to hear the word cull, but it is a part of poultry husbandry that must be utilized in flock management. Whether you choose to take it into your own hands or use your state vet, that is a personal decision. The state vet is your best option in getting to the bottom of what you're dealing with prior to treatment. They are also an excellent resource of information on diseases, disease management and your state laws related to reportable diseases.

    I wish you all happy, healthy flocks.

    After repeating my feelings on the usage of antibiotics here, I am hoping to see a continuation of this discussion as a valuable resource of information for all of our members. I am interested in hearing what is appropriate and inappropriate for treatment of poultry, as I think we can always learn more from each other. Of course, many of us have pets and many of us have food bearing animals. Let's take this into consideration while posting and make this a good informative post that we can add to the "helpful info" sticky at the top of this forum.​
     
  6. sammi

    sammi Chillin' With My Peeps

    Dec 21, 2007
    Southeast USA
    I will say this...may not be scientific..JMHO..
    it bugs me whenever there seems to be something not quite right..even in chicks..
    people go to a store and are always given terramycin..
    as if it's some sort of cure-all or wonder drug.
    chicks can be dying from cocci, or some other problem, even something as simple as chilling..but they have terramycin in their water.

    I'm not saying that terramycin doesn't have it's use..but it's way over used.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  7. dlhunicorn

    dlhunicorn Human Encyclopedia

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    Unnecessary mistaken usage of antibiotics do more harm than good... overusage (including unnecessary and mistaken "prophylactic" usage) from the (commercial) poultry industry is what has led to the FDA's harsh line on meds.
    However, it is the legal staus of the chicken (it is point blank a food animal in the eyes of the FDA period/end of discussion) which is IMHO the root of the problem...that and the absolute irresponsibility of the commercial industry (past and present) to use medicines responsibly that has caused the FDA backlash in regulations.
     
  8. Suellyn

    Suellyn Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I agree with Sammi 110%...

    The OVERUSE of antibiotics, the MISUSE of antibiotics (i.e. dosage, length of tx, utilization of appropriate type, etc.), and the MISUNDERSTANDING of antibiotics (what they actually DO... and DO NOT do, and associated risks of using them), run rampant... and can be veiwed DAILY on this board.

    I absolutely believe that BYC members are here because they care about their chickens, and want to "do right" by them, so it really comes down to education... I think a sticky (or STICKIES) of some sort would be very helpful.

    Something that explains "when to use antibiotics and when NOT to", almost a flowchart of sorts (?) or basic "punchlist" of "FACT - FACT - FACT", with optional links or resources for further information on the various aspects of this subject.

    The reason I am suggesting this approach is because of the way this board is typically used; someone has a sick bird and wants to know what to do IMMEDIATELY, further detailed reading/research often occurs later, after the immediate crisis is over.

    I hope this is not "thread hijacking" (Mods please move/delete if it is!!), but 2 other stickies that I think would be of IMMENSE value for this board are:

    1.) Basic triage/emergency care: what to do FIRST... By this I mean directions on basic supportive care and evaluation. There are countless posts explaining how/when to seperate, give supplemental heat, vitamins or pedialyte, protein or hi-energy food, and then how to monitor and further evaluate the bird's needs/condition. Kind of a "I have a sick/injured bird, what do I do FIRST?" sticky.

    2.) Dewormers & anti-parasitics. Uses & risks, what type of meds treat what kind of parasites, maintenence dosing vs a "sick/infested bird" situation. One thing I have seen that I feel is of concern, are situations where a bird is obviously very compromised/sick and may or MAY NOT have a parasite issue, but owner is being advised to give strong anti-parasitic drugs PRIOR to any kind of supportive care/further evaluation. Sort of like the antibiotic situation.

    Oh, and of course like Hinkjc mentioned, I think it's important for readers to understand that advice given/followed is at the sole discretion of the giver/follower!! Even the best licensed Vet in the world is going to be unable to give comprehensive/accurate advice sometimes, you often CAN'T tell via internet/typed description what's going on!!!!!! Even with physical examinations and high-tech diagnostics it can still be a mystery sometimes...
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2009
  9. dlhunicorn

    dlhunicorn Human Encyclopedia

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    This board (and all other similar boards) are monitored by the FDA... the information you mention is avilable in past threads (URLS are given) and I have a library with extensive information at all educational levels (from very simple explanations for the layman up to vet tech level including literature written by vets for other vets as well and links to all the Poultry Science journals etc which I have attempted to organize) ... it is too extensive to post here in stickies... it is not a board as this is but a library ... there is also a quick reference emergency section, practical section for Avian wound management suturing and giving injections... you just have to click the link below to access it... I maintain it especially for members here and at other clubs. The responsibility as to how you use the information is up to the individual and the country they happen to live in. There is also an extensive terminology reference thread for those medical terms one might not be familar with.
     
  10. Kimiko

    Kimiko Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I posted the information and back up from FARAD and FDA which I cited, copied and pasted, but you may not have recognized if not from the US. They are both US regulatory agencies.

    General practice on other international boards is to ignore regulatory updates if not applicable to you. If I saw info for France, I certainly wouldn't contradict any information given unless someone asked for clarification regarding US laws and I was qualified to give it. Obviously, many were not aware of the baytril issue in the US.

    In re: credentials, I am a licensed, practicing veterinarian in the US.

    I don't think my call name as a thread topic will clue anyone in that this was supposed to be a discussion about antibiotics-which is not what the first post was about in any case.
     

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