Latest battle with Enterococcus and Escherichia coli

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by Michael Apple, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. Michael Apple

    Michael Apple Overrun With Chickens

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    There are misconceptions regarding bumble foot, the type of bacterial infections that develop, and what antibiotics are effective. I have found this out recently after many years of raising chickens and dealing with what is commonly known as bumble foot a few times.

    Commonly regarded as a staph infection, E. coli and Enterococcus sp. can make treatment difficult, even when Staphylococcus is not present. Especially if the infection gets in the joint. I recently had a culture and sensitivity test performed from exudate I retained from the wound. Testing showed that Enterococcus was resistant to Erythromycin, Doxycycline, Tetracycline, and Chloramphenicol.

    E.coli was resistant to Amoxicillin/Clav Acid (Clavamox), Ciprofloxacin, Enrofloxacin, Trimethoprim-Sulfa, and others Enterococcus is resistant to. So we can't believe simply because an antibiotic is considered "broad spectrum" and "effective against gram positive and gram negative bacteria" that use of it will be successful.

    Commonly known as a combiotic ( a combination of the correct dosages of two antibiotics), the synergistic efficacy of partners such as Amoxicillin, or ampicillin or penicillin combined with Gentamicin is recommended for serious infections of Enteroccus (gram positive) and E. coli (gram negative) bacteria. It is best to consult with a knowledgeable avian vet regarding percentages of combinations since there are some real clowns practicing veterinary medicine out there. I've dealt with them.

    Baytril (Enrofloxacin) has become common use, though in vitro tests have not consistently produced clinical effectiveness, so it is not recommended.

    Vancomycin is highly regarded for treatment of serious systemic infections, but not for simple urinary tract infections.

    So as one can see, the battle against bacteria continues in nature, and science is needed to overcome. If there are single antibiotics that cannot eliminate E.coli or Enterococcus as they once did, there should be no illusion that treating bacterial infections with organic compounds, used before the development of modern medicine, would be any more successful. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used antibiotics in the last decade. Prevention through good husbandry practices and proper diet/supplementation certainly lessen susceptibility to disease, but when a problem arises, you need to be able to remedy it.

    This toe infection has been frustrating to me since I have often researched and found successful treatments to problems over the years. This particular bacterial infection changed everything. This will likely be the most expensive rooster I've had, but finding solutions to problems that may happen in the future is worth it to me. Plus, he doesn't have to die or lose an extremity.

    While this task continues, I will share what I learn, and eventually what cures this problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
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  2. ChickensAreSweet

    ChickensAreSweet Heavenly Grains for Hens

    I tried to subscribe to the thread but when I clicked on "subscribe" it said "failed to create subscription," so I am posting here instead so it will show up on my list.
     
  3. Michael Apple

    Michael Apple Overrun With Chickens

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    That may have something to do with your personal settings.

    There exists a cocktail of antibiotics known among foreigners and, of course, veterinarians. The combination of Penicillin G, Streptomycin, and traces of Flumethasone (an anti-inflammatory) is supposed to be the executioner of gram positive + gram negative bacterial infections in wounds while relieving inflammation, and only a small amount is needed (.1 cc intramuscular injection for every 2 kg / 4.5 lbs of a rooster). It is not recommended in hens, but milk producing animals require a 72 hour withdrawal. If one cares enough to save their backyard hen's life, he/she might consider it. I am consulting with highly recommended avian vet this coming weekend and will give some details about what we discuss.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
  4. Michael Apple

    Michael Apple Overrun With Chickens

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    Like any antibiotic therapy, I cannot stress the importance of well hydrated birds enough, and knowing the duration of time and dosage during antibiotic therapy. Amikacin was recommended for deep tissue/joint infections of these two particular bacterial strains of Enterococcus and E. coli. Dosage is .2 ml intramuscular injection (breast) 2x a day for 5 days with a 6 lb rooster.

    In regard to the combiotic I mentioned in the previous post. It is an effective treatment against very resistant bacteria such as what I am dealing with. The ingredient of Trypsin in that particular combiotic is an enigma at this point and needs to be researched in relation to it's use in avian species such as chickens.

    The rooster is lively, eating well, and drinking. Muscle and weight is still good even after losing almost .25 lbs. Granular tissue has been removed, so new tissue can regenerate in the wound. This is why I will not recommend nitrofurazone soluble salve for wounds such as bumblefoot. This experience has proven to me that NFZ burns out infection but hinders the regeneration of healthy tissue... a drying effect causes this. Short term use would be alright. We already know neo-poly-bac (Neosporin) is worthless. For long term use, I'd recommend silver sulfadiazine cream since it not only prevents and destroys bacteria, it also helps regeneration of tissue. The veterinarian impressed me with his common sense and knowledge of medicine regarding poultry. This vet is a keeper. He agreed silver sulfadiazine is the best topical in this situation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
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  5. Akrnaf2

    Akrnaf2 The educated Rhino Premium Member

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    Are you all thought deeply about the consequences of your chickens antibiotic treatment ? After all, according to your descriptions you just created bacteria populations that are more and more resistant to all existing kind of antibiotics! The bacteria that you reminded, are also pathogenic bacteria to humans,and can cause severe disease in humans . Have you all thought what you will do if , God forbid , you expose to thous pathogens? You must remember that antibiotic resistance is proportional to the frequency of use ! And as it will be used more on animals less you can use it on humans , it is best to focus on disease prevention than cure of diseases !
     
  6. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    You recommended an antibiotic here in this link when it was not needed since fowl pox goes away on its own eventually.
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...warts-on-chickens-face-and-comb#post_15008789
     
  7. Michael Apple

    Michael Apple Overrun With Chickens

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    After more than 30 years of caring for chickens, I'm well aware of what I'm doing. The thought was to cure the infection, and my thought is winning. I can count the times I've used antibiotics on one hand in more than a decade. Any doctor of Avian medicine can tell you, every so often a resistant strain of bacteria can arise that requires more than a standard treatment. My focus on prevention resides with chickens I own being 9-10 years old that still lay eggs. If you actually think preventative measures always ensure resistance to pathogenic bacteria, you have much to learn about bacteriology.
     
  8. Akrnaf2

    Akrnaf2 The educated Rhino Premium Member

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    Fowl pox is a platform for secondary bacterial infections to enter the bird and my recommendation intended to that! And not as a treatment for the pox virus, as everybody knows that virus doesn't not influenced by antibiotics. And if the person who posted the post about the fowl pox was vaccinating his flock against it,all the discussion was inrelevant! When I am speaking about disease prevention, vaccination is one of the main methods that comes in mined!
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  9. Chickerdoodle13

    Chickerdoodle13 The truth is out there...

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    Joint infections can be such a horrendous thing to deal with, so I can feel your pain. We actually had a study/tutor case about a cat that had been bitten after escaping from the house for a week or so. In that case, they tried antibiotic therapy, but the cat developed draining tracts from the toe after a course of treatment (I *think* it was clavamox, but this was the beginning of the year so I'm not entirely sure) Anyway, in the end they had to amputate the toe because the bacteria had formed resistant biofilms and the toe was undergoing severe osteomyelitis.

    It's just that bones and joints are such great places for biolfims to form and once they form, it can be near impossible to treat with any sort of drugs. It's a problems with metal bone plates and they usually just take them out once an infection sets in.

    Have you considered amputation of the affect digit or limb? Bumblefoot that has progressed into the joint generally has a pretty poor prognosis (Even worse in wildlife that we want to release) but the good news is that your rooster doesn't need to hunt for his dinner, so he has much more options (Though in my case, it would be greatly restricted by the size of my wallet).

    I would definitely be interested to hear what they avian vet has to say.

    (And in this case, you have done your homework about antibiotics and have a good understanding about them. I have NO issues with people considering their use after research, which it seems you have done extensively!)
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
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  10. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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