Lav genes in my BBS Ameraucanas?

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by HeatherFeather, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. HeatherFeather

    HeatherFeather Chillin' With My Peeps

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    3 generations in from my original stock of BBS Ameraucanas.....it appears I have lavender genes in there.

    I've got a couple chicks like this now. Initially I thought they were faded out blues or poor splashes, now I'm thinking they are lavs and one of my original blues was split to lav.

    Having never seen a lav IRL....

    Can someone confirm for me this is what I have going on? (a genetic mess right?)[​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Thanks much in advance
     
  2. Egghead_Jr

    Egghead_Jr Overrun With Chickens

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    It's blue absent the lacing. You can confirm this when you breed it to a black. If all black offspring then indeed it's lavender and all those black birds are now split for it. I suspect the offspring will instead be 50% black and 50% blue and she is just pale blue and absent the lacing.
     
  3. HeatherFeather

    HeatherFeather Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thanks Egghead Jr

    I've never heard of blue without the lacing, although I am aware that blue can decline without breeding back to black enough. Is that what this is?

    All of my adult stock are blue except 1/4 roos, which is black. Any idea what this means for my BBS breeding program? Should I keep these birds out of my breedstock or, they would be ok so long as I only keep black roos this year?

    Is it ok to sell chicks out of the same breeding group which produced this chick as BBS? I do a lot of chick sales all spring and summer.

    So if I follow your suggestion and breed to black.....what if that black happened to be unknowingly split to lav?
     
  4. Egghead_Jr

    Egghead_Jr Overrun With Chickens

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    What I was saying is I very much doubt you've lavender in there. The lose of lacing in Blue is a big problem for all the breeds. Lacing and blue (black inhibitor) are two separate loci and not linked but for proper Blue variety the standard calls for lacing. So what you've got going on is birds with single copy of lacing and from that half the offspring would be absent. With careful selection of the most complete laced birds as breeders you can move the flock to double copy of lacing. When lacing is that strong you can actually see traces of it in your splash birds. Lacing is something to be aware of in your stock and care to guard it's being bred out. A blue bird without lacing is not lavander though they can look identical if light blue. The difference is of course the laveder breeds true and blue offshoots black and splash.

    If you know the parentage of this particular bird then yes, it's a big indicator not to cross them anymore. If this is a cross of a black and blue then look that blue's lacing over carefully and see if you have another bird with better definition and all feathers. If the blue bird looks good then don't use the black parent again as it may be absent any lacing gene. In test mating like this you can decipher what is under the blacks and splash. Banding of birds and keeping records of who is who and what you discovered is underlying is key to knowing where you can go with what stock you have.

    As for the base color of blue it can be moved to what degree you find most desirable. Black birds will darken the blue offspring and using blues that are close to each others color and near the shade your looking to work to will give high percentage of that desired hue in offspring. If a wide separation of blue hue (in two blue parents) then your offspring will be just as varied. I must say Bue is my favorite variety. In reality that pullet has good slate color, tad too light, if the standard's description is what your goal is but her lack of any lacing gene makes her undesirable as a breeder. I raised them for a good stint of years but in the end couldn't get the quality of stock I wanted to continue with. Had great laced stock with high potential to move to breed standard but then domestic separation and not able to find foster flock masters in time...ugh, never was able to get any of the stock back when back into chickens.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  5. HeatherFeather

    HeatherFeather Chillin' With My Peeps

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    A million thank yous Egghead Jr.

    Seriously. Coming across this info can be hard enough, but finding someone this quickly who is able to steer me in the right direction a total gem.

    I'm thrilled to know that there is little chance of having lavs in my BBS. That would be a logistical nightmare. Total stock replacement really.

    I'm using 3 blue roos and one black roo over 5 blue hens. All the hens are deep slate blue and nicely laced, same as the roos. So no, I don't know the exact parentage of these unlaced pullets (I have 2 and already culled the roos) (and the gender balance works, because my ameraucanas are housed with a flock of 30 leghorn cross hens)

    Two of the blue roos I'm not crazy about, and I have another nice looking black cockeral up and coming. So I guess my plan of approach will be to hammer up some pair sized breeding pens in the spring, and do a bunch of test breeds to figure out which bird (s) is only carrying one copy of the lacing.

    These unlaced pullets.....I spose I'll be able to sell them in the spring to someone who would like a pretty hen who lays a pretty blue egg and is not interested in showing.

    FWIW I took a pic of the other pullet this am. I'll attach it anyhow.

    Thanks so much again.

    PS I hear you on the domestic separation issue...been there done that......every year when it starts to snow...I lament the snowboard I lost in that deal. And that is all ;) [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Egghead_Jr

    Egghead_Jr Overrun With Chickens

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    A snowboard is easy enough to replace so you can out ahead really.

    To be clear you have more than one bird with only one copy of lacing. Think about genetics for a sec; for each loci a baby takes one of two genes from the same location from each parent. So if each parent has one lace gene (you want to work to them having two) then you've absent/lace, lace/lace, absent/absent, lace/absent for possible match ups. Lace gene being a dominant gene will express with only one copy present. Looking at the possibilities there you've a 1 in 4 chance the bird wont have any lacing and 1 in 4 chance it has exceptional lacing (birds with two copies have near to all feathers laced and 50% chance of laced birds that have only one copy. This is a major reason why the old adage of blue breeders is to always use a blue in your mating- it's to ensure you don't loose the lace. You'd have to use only blue parents for a few generations (and only those with complete lacing the second generation) to bring your flock back to all two copies of lacing and then it's still not garanteed there won't be some holding only one copy. But it's certain the blacks and splash are all carrying at least one copy and high chance they have two. Like I said before the splash will show some lacing if two lace genes. Not a hesitation to use a splash like that with black.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  7. HeatherFeather

    HeatherFeather Chillin' With My Peeps

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    ah ah. I was already thinking that....it must be recessive and these pullets have no copies of the lace gene.

    Line breeding. Brings out the best and the worst eh? But now I know what I have. and Eventually...I WILL have some of the best. I know it. Or at least I hope for it!

    So I guess I'm highly suspecting that black rooster then. DARN!! And he already won a blue ribbon too. Because I know all my blue roos have lacing. As do my blue hens. And I also really like an up and coming black cockeral. shucks again. However...not to know for sure until I do some test hatches with pairs. and go over them all for absence of lacing in some feathers like you said.
     
  8. pips&peeps

    pips&peeps There is no "I" in Ameraucana

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    I had lavender pop up in my bantam BBS.

    Private message me and we can discuss our breeders we got them from to see if there is a connection.

    It looks lavender to me. The quill on a lavender feather will be light on the top side and dark on the under side.
     
  9. samouw

    samouw Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Those look like lavender, aka self-blue, to me. Looks like you have either blue or black, split for the lavender gene, in your breeding pen.
     
  10. Meara

    Meara Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I thought they looked a bit like dun or khaki. Is that a possibility?

    As it happens I am purposefully breeding unlaced blue! I'd certainly be interested in buying your birds, but are you in Canada? I'd be interested in hatching eggs too if you have those.
     

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