Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the SOP' started by ChicKat, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Here is the basis of my project: Cross Cream Legbar with Isabel(aka Isabella, Isabelle, Isabelline) Leghorn. The name "Lavender patterned Isable duckwing - barred" is from Henk's chicken calculator. (Thanks again for the millionth time Henk!)


    From the Legbar - the desired genetics are barring genes (to solidify autosexing) and the personality, egg productivity and possibly blue-egg gene (probably since it is dominant) - also the productivity - just at this moment my Legbars are outlaying my Leghorns....

    From the Leghorns - the lavender-brown genetics. My Leghorns too (from CJ Waldon and Cree57i chicks) are prettier type, more consistent type and closer to show-quality chickens.

    The objective would be an autosexing chicken with Isabelline coloration that has barring added. A productive, thrifty chicken that is less flighty than the Leghorn, and prettier than the Legbar.

    That's not too much to ask is it?

    Anyone who can give thoughts on the subject is encouraged to do so. In the pens right now are split males with Isabel females -- in the incubator some eggs, and in the brooder lavender chicks some of which may have the barring gene. (because the split males only have 1 barring gene from their Legbar mother)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  2. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Here is a good starting point:
    https://www.leghorn.nl/artikelen/Isabel patrijs-UK.pdf?phpMyAdmin=92cf0928fc32fa6ade98585639c49441

    That PDF shows some of the manifestations of 'Isabel' - it is called 'Isabella' in that article, and it is also 'Isabel' in Netherlands.

    The article goes down to the feather level and it shows a couple of breeds - including Leghorn and Brahma Bantam. Orpington raisers have also gotten Isabel(la) as well as some have developed Isabel + barring.

    Some terms/names that cross the Atlantic and change, and there are hobby names and actual genetic names etc. It can get confusing when you first encounter them.

    All that can be put in as this thread develops.

    An accurate genetic name may be 'lavender-brown barred' -- but the most accurate one is, I think, the one generated by Henk's chicken calculator -- lavender patterned Isabel duckwing - barred DF.

    More on that later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  3. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    In the USA Buddy Henry developed the Isabella Leghorn - (when I use Isabel - I'm referring to the same plumage pattern) --- They can be obtained at Cackle Hatchery and from member here on BYC with member name CJWaldon --
    ETA - CJWaldon has discontinued Isabel Leghorns to concentrate on the barred + Isabel birds. Pure Isabel and also project bird HATCHING EGGS can be obtained from our BYC Member " hhong3138 " - that's current info as of 5/18.17 - (New BYC can go back and edit old posts)
    This from Cackle Hatchery website is the method that the Isabel was derived:

    "The Isabella Leghorn was orginated by Buddy Henry and is now offered in baby chicks by Cackle
    Hatchery in small quanities. Below is some of Buddy’s breeding history of this beautiful chicken
    breed.
    2008 Lavender Orpington Male X Brown Leghorn Females from Cackle Hatchery
    Result: Black offspring exhibiting gold in hackles & split for lavender, various leg colors, white
    earlobes and an overall leghorn appearance. Layer of light tan eggs. Generation 1


    2009 Generation 1 Male X Generation 1 Females
    Result: 75% Chipmunk Pattern Chicks: Culled from breeding
    20% Solid Lavender Chicks: Culled from breeding
    5% Isabelle Pattern Chicks: Kept and revealed same type as generation 1 but we now have
    generation 2 half orpington, half leghorn


    2010 Generation 2 Males X Brown Leghorn Females from Cackle Hatchery Brown Leghorn
    Males from Cackle Hatchery X Generation 2 Females
    Result: Generation 3 Cross 1 Split for Lavender Generation 3
    Cross 2 Split for Lavender
    This generation appeared like brown leghorns only darker in color patterns. Pearl legs were
    still an issue but earlobes were white and eggs were finally white.


    2011 Generation 3 Cross 1 Males X Generation 3 Cross 2 Females Generation 3
    Cross 2 Males X Generation 3 Cross 1 Females
    Result: 50% Chipmunk Pattern Culled Same
    50% Isabelle Pattern Generation 4
    All birds kept and not separated. Product looks done but birds are still 25% Orpington and
    very heavy in appearance.


    2012 Generation 4 Males X Brown Leghorn Females Don Schrider Show Line Brown
    Leghorn Males Don Schrider Line X Generation 4
    Result: Generation 5 Cross 1 Generation 5
    Cross 2


    Generation 5 is a pure brown leghorn in every since of the word. Excellent abundance of white eggs,
    large white earlobes and all yellow legs. The only difference is these birds
    split for Lavender


    2013 Generation 5 Cross 1 Male X Generation 5 Cross Females Generation 5
    Cross 2 Males X Generation 5 Cross 1 Females
    Result: 50% Pure Brown Leghorns
    50% Pure Isabelle Leghorns Same


    Today these birds breed true as well as many other ways to get the same result.

    Isabelle X Isabelle = 100% Isabelle
    Isabelle X Brown Leghorn = 50% Isabelle & 50% Brown Leghorn


    These birds meet ALL requirements except for color of the American Poultry Associations Standard of Perfection Manual on a Leghorn."

    As you can tell from the above, the breeding took generations. Started in 2009 and successfully completed in 2013.

    From that line - here are some of the chickens that I obtained - some from Cree57i and some from CJWaldon:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Isabel - in the background of the photo with the blue tarp to prevent 'fence fighting' is a Legbar.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Female Isabels with split male. The male pictured is the son of the above rooster paired with a Legbar hen.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  4. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    A couple of words about the Legbar side of the equation - In 2012 I started with Cream Legbars. In the intervening 5-years I have learned a lot that will contribute to this project. The major attraction to Cream Legbars is that they are autosexing. As opposed to sex-linked which requires keeping different breeds and only works in that hybrid world, autosexing breeds true year-after-year, thus IMO is more sustainable for the small flock raiser because you have the option of keeping only 1 breed rather than two breeds in order to get autosexing.

    The reason that the CL is autosexing is that the plumage type is crele. Crele is a combination of the barring genes plus duckwing.

    Duckwing:
    • The plumage pattern of the red jungle fowl
    • Called "patridge" in Europe, it is also called wild type - because the plumage pattern is reflected in the earliest chickens - showing the least genetic plumage mutations
    • produces chicks with dorsal stripes and eye bands...."chipmunk" look.
    • Comes in silver and gold - also I think red as in BBR
    • can be recognized in adult plumage by a bar on the wing in males and a wing triangle where the secondary wing feathers are folded And a salmon breast on the adult female
    • The wing triangle of the Duckwing male will indicate what genetics are on the S-locus

    Barring
    • females have one barring gene
    • males have two barring genes
    • barring is dominant - two barring genes in the male manifest different plumage than one barring gene (i.e. more barring, more distinct barring)
    • barring can express as 'cuckoo' - a bit more irregular and the barring makes a slight very flattened wide V when both sides meet at the shaft of the feather, or as the traditional BPR type barring. - Speed of feather growth influences the appearance of barring. Slow growing feathered chickens have smaller bars spaced very close together - and fast feather growing birds have barring that has more space between the larger bars. Fast feather growth allows chicks to feather out faster and be ready to get out of the brooder sooner, and fast feather growth allows chickens to go through the molt faster.

    The combination of Duckwing genes -- which are located on the E-locus and written as e+/e+ and the barring genes indicated by B/B on the male and B/- on the female -- or can be notated as B/w where - if I'm remembering correctly the lower case 'w' just indicates that it is a hen and she only has one placeholder for barring gene so she can have only one at the most. This is also true for the S-locus (silver/gold color base) the male has two placeholders and the female has only one. Just to reiterate, females can have at the most one barring gene, males can have one or two (or none, of course, as the basic Isabel).

    This article by Henk Meijer
    http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm
    is an excellent starting place for chicken genetics colors.

    Henk along with Grant Brereton and Sigrid Van Dort are chicken genetics geniuses and each of them has been so generous and helpful in sharing their knowledge and answering my questions over the years that I have been involved with genetics that I am in awe of them. Sigrid has a wonderful book 'The Genetics of Chicken Colours', Grant has several books including e-books and even came here to the States to give a chicken genetics seminar which I was fortunate enough to attend some years back, and Henk's chicken calculator is right here and it can help you plan your breeding strategy and formulate complex Punnett squares and give you the statistics of the number of chickens you will need to hatch to get the genetics combination you are seeking.

    Here's a link to the chicken calculator that I use:
    http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

    The image of the 'basic' chickens are wild-type. If you go to the line for lavender genes (the very last one in the column) - and switch the upper case (dominant gene) to two lower case (recessive gene) for lavender, the images will change accordingly. Then when you put your mouse on the 'calculate crossing' -- you can see the resulting offsprig. If you make only one of the pair a split lavender, you will see the results of that pairing by clicking the 'calculate crossing button. You can even go to the Punnett's Square tab and it will show you the genetic results. The calculator also has shown you genotype and phenotype. Now-- is Henk a genius or what?

    In the image below, an artist rendition of a gold-crele leghorn. The arrow points to the wing-triangle which is "gold" or brown aka red in chicken talk. Above the wing triangle, between the red patch on the soulder and the wing triangle or wing bay as it is also called is a dark bar - an indicator of duckwing (e+/e+) on the E-Locus.
    [​IMG]
    a dilution gene lightens the expression of gold in Cream Legbars -- so on the legbar side of the equation these plumage patterns demonstrate the starting point:
    [​IMG]
    IF this chicken were gold, as the above illustration the wing triangle (outlined in yellow) would be a darker brown. IN this molt, his wing bar just below the red shoulder looks more prominent.
    [​IMG]
    Cream Legbar female -- note the salmon coloration in the breast - this is an adult indication of a hen that is wild-type on the E-locus
    [​IMG]
    Cream Legbar male showing double barring - note the red shoulder plumage and the faint and 'messy' bar on the duckwing.

    Using the magic of photoshop, I took the two above images and faded the dark plumage, and projected what my target will look like. There are Orpingtons with the lavender-crele plumage patterns, but I have not yet seen an example of the lighter breeds with the plumage I'm aiming for.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    A little more saturation, a better duckwing bar -- would be desirable in the male.

    ETA
    Here is a bigger, better image of the 'gold crele'- or 'black patterned gold duckwing' barred pair:
    [​IMG]
    in the above, you can see the wing triangle better, you can see the red shoulder on the male and the salmon breast on the female more clearly AND, you can see the image of the chicks -- chipmunk stripe - male with white head splotch (due to double barring factor) and female with continuous dorsal stripe and distinct white stripes beside the dorsal stripe. So the autosexability of the chick down is the reason I want to add the barring.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  5. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Oh -- If I didn't say it already - comments are very welcome.

    If someone has a different view or experience please feel free to post. In addition to the pictures, I will try to post the theory behind what I am doing, and the quotes from the books I have here on chickening that are applicable.

    So here's one factor that I came across today:
    "Creeper [gene]:"Cr"
    An incomplete dominant gene causing short legs: (cr, cr) are normal leg length, (Cr,cr) are short-legged, and(Cr,Cr) die as embryos during incubation. Typical of Japanese (Chabo) bantams, Scots Dumpies and similar breeds in other countries.
    Exhibition Poultry Keeping - David Scrivener p 102-103


    So I took a loot in one of the pens today and photographed this:
    [​IMG]
    on the left, a hen with shorter legs. She is a good layer, however, she needs to be removed from the breeding flock.
    [​IMG]
    Here is another photo from that same pen - a little different angle. You can tell that she is shorter because her back line is lower than either of the two chickens beside her. In the following picture, the short-legged chicken is between the other two hens, and the cockerel is 'guarding' them from the photographer intrusion.

    [​IMG]
    Regarding the cockerel, he is a split for lavender, barring, cresting and cream. You can see that his wing is a good example of the 'duckwing' - Here's what David Scriviner says about duckwing when he is discussing dual mating to get the best for showing duckwings (aka wild type, and in Europe 'partridge)
    Duckwing
    "The term 'duck-wing' has been used for centuries by British Game Fowl breeders and is derived from the band of metallic blue feathers on the cocks of this variety allegedly similar to that of wild Mallard drakes."
    Exhibition Poultry Keeping - David Scrivener p 112

    Although back-lit, the dark bar above his wing triangle is very visible and distinctive. Here is an enlargement of that part of his wing:
    [​IMG]
    He can provide his offspring with barring, lavender and the blue egg gene. To be discarded are the cream gene, and the cresting gene.
    This cockerel is from the lavender male pictured earlier in the thread and my wonderful 5-year old Cream Legbar, Robin. If his daughters inherit Robin's egg-laying proficiency -- they will be wonderful chickens.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  6. Double Barrel

    Double Barrel Out Of The Brooder

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    I really like this project! I'm following to see how it evolves.
    Good work, so far.
    DB
     
  7. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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  8. cree57i

    cree57i Chillin' With My Peeps Premium Member

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    I am extremely impressed with ChicKat's careful planning and knowledge. I've been following from the first post and have already learned so much! Can't wait to watch how this continues to evolve.
     
  9. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member



    Thanks guys! [​IMG]
     
  10. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Any journey requires a destination. Any project requires a desired outcome. If you don't know where you're going you'll never get there.
    [​IMG]
    So the aim is important to keep front and center. That leads to the question: "Who has this plumage pattern?" Some people DO - but only in Orpingtons. Orpingtons aren't my cup of tea. I like standard sized birds that are good layers. (Although I have a bossy bantam game hen OEGB here that really has a personality that won't quit - and she would be an excellent pet for anyone)

    If you google 'Isabel cuckoo' - you will find several images. Here are a couple of screen grabs, their links and attribution:
    Here is a good example from 'the fancy chick dot com" web link is here:http://www.countrypure.net/IsabelCuckooOrpington.html

    [​IMG]
    Notice the barring on the tail feathers, the semblance of the duckwing wing-bar and the diluted red on the shoulder. That website had a lot of good information about genetics. It looks like their 'contact us' isn't working - but it could be just my computer. I will keep trying to contact them.
    At the moment I posted this without their consent - usually with attribution people enjoy a plug for their enterprise. This website looks like it hasn't been updated since spring 2016.
    [​IMG]
    Chicks from this pair are currently offered on Craig's list Roanoke VA for $39 each. Here's the link: https://roanoke.craigslist.org/grd/5968198546.html
    If you live in Boone's Mill VA they could be your neighbor.

    According to the Fancy Chick site: After generations of breeding, the Isabels will begin to fade and loose some of their pastel
    overtones. Every few generations it is advised to breed to a Partridge to introduce new
    color."

    Not sure that they are using the term partridge in the same way it is used in Europe to mean Wild type

    If anyone else has lavender Crele by what ever name you call it - in any breed, please post some pictures of your chickens in this thread. Thanks!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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