LGD pup - gate conflict UPDATE pg 6

Discussion in 'Other Pets & Livestock' started by zzGypsy, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. zzGypsy

    zzGypsy Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Aug 8, 2011
    hi all,

    I got some great advice here on my LGD pup who was showing a lot of food agression. that situation is much improved (although not perfect)... now on to the next one...

    looking for advice from folks wih LGD experience.

    context referesher: two LGD pups, Turk (male) and Seka (female), litter mates. they are 1/2 pyr, 1/4 anatolian, 1/4 kangal. they're aprox 6 months old. neither is fixed yet, but we have that on the agenda for Turk some time next month.

    new problem: he's started to be space territorial, both with the goats and with Seka. well, he's always been a bit pushy with Seka, willing to growl and put her on the ground over the food agression. now he's starting to space-challenge the goats as well.

    we have a kennel building, runs are indoor/outdoor with a self closing panel the dogs and goats can open between the inside/outside areas. we have 2 runs open to the dogs and goats, along with an open yard about 75x75'. sometimes the goats will be in the inside area of one of the runs and Turk comes to the panel door, where he's now growling at the goats, who are prone to defend the door.

    if I tell him "knock it off" he'll immediately stop growling, then goes around to the other run and comes in. however, if I'm out of sight, the behavior persits.

    the dogs have been living with the goats 24/7. I can keep them in the runs separate from the goats if needed, but the runs are small for these dogs, and I don't have a lot of time each day to supervise and correct behavior as I work off site.

    so.

    first, will fixing him affect this behavior?

    next, the jury has been out as to if Turk is going to make it as a LGD. given this new behavior, I'm starting to have my doubts. he's a complete love with me, seeks petting (perhaps more than I'd prefer, given his job), and barks appropriately at strange people and animals on the property.

    I'm looking for a strategy for managing this and correcting it, after all he is still a very young dog, or an opinion on how to evaluate if he's going to be unsuitable for livestock duty, or if we can tell at this age.

    if he's not going to make it as a stock guarding dog, I'll need to start looking for a replacement, and considering where he's going to fit, if he needs a new home, and what kind of home is appropriate.

    thanks for your help.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  2. Jamie_Dog_Trainer

    Jamie_Dog_Trainer Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jul 8, 2008
    Washington State
    I remember your other post and long thread about Turk. I also remember my last comming (or close to last) was regarding him possibly not being suitable as an LGD. You're seeing more bad behavior from him, and the other issue of food aggression isn't completely addressed yet. At about 6 months of age this is quite young to be showing this amount of problems with what he is supposed to be bred for. If I had a GSD that was a working prospect and at six months of age was showing no interest in..say obedience and was avoiding any kind of tug/toy play work (prep for bite work) I would wash that dog from my training.

    I honestly can't quite understand what you describe him doing. I read it a few times and found it confusing. So he's growing at the goats coming into the pen, or moving toward him in a doorway?
     
  3. dainerra

    dainerra Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I don't quite understand either. Read one way, it sounds like the goats are "defending" the doorway and the dog is then growling at them?
     
  4. Junaleefarm

    Junaleefarm Out Of The Brooder

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    Crane, Mo
    I am not the most experienced LGD owner but we have had Great Pyrenees for awhile now. We feel that if given the right training from almost birth you will have a hard time going wrong. We will almost always give pups to 1 year to work out all the puppy issues. We almost got rid of our most trusted farm/guardian dog before the 1 year cut-off. Now she is our favorite Pyr and has provided 1 great litter of pups for us. As far as the food agression goes we still deal with this all the time, I guess this just goes with the breed. We try to feed the dogs in different areas to avoid as much as possible, usually the goats will not try to stand down the dog if they are a strong well trained guardian. I would probably let your animals work it out amongst them selves for awhile(with some close supervision if you have young goats) and it should work itself out.

    Good luck,



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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  5. zzGypsy

    zzGypsy Chillin' With My Peeps

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    ok, lets see if I can describe this more clearly.

    goats are nigerian and mini-lamanchas, so they're smallish.

    runs are
    - 6'x16' on the outside run, welded square wire sides.
    - solid flap door in the kennel house wall, 18" wide x 28" high opening, 6" off the ground, door is partly blocked open, maybe 5".
    - inside part of the run is 6'x6' or so inside the kennel house. side walls are solid metal, but the side facing the aisleway, opposite the flap door, is welded square wire grid.
    - from the outside run, if the flap door is open, the critters can look in, through the inner section of run, and see me in the asileway.

    the two available runs are side by side.

    on the first run, goats are inside, dogs are outside. goats tend to stand at the doorway looking out. dogs want to move from the outer run into the inner section of the run through the flap door.

    Seka will just wriggle her way in, even if the goats try to butt to keep her out. or she goes around to the second run.

    Turk stands at the door and growls at the goats. they will sometimes try to butt him if he comes in. eventually they'll bolt out the door, or they may yield the door, then once he's in, bolt out.

    Turk is smart, after several corrections yesterday and several today (maybe 4 or 5 altogether), he looks inside to see if he can see me inside the kennel. if he does, no growling, and after half a minute or so, he goes around to the second run and comes in to the inner area of that run. but after these corrections, and getting it right (going to the other run) several times, he did this again (growling) when I was out of sight.

    hope that's more clear... would be easier with pictures.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  6. zzGypsy

    zzGypsy Chillin' With My Peeps

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    it occured to me after I wrote all that out that turk may be challenging the goats because they are blocking his access to me, rather than to the inside of the run.
     
  7. Jamie_Dog_Trainer

    Jamie_Dog_Trainer Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jul 8, 2008
    Washington State
    Ok so, from what I gather Turk is growling at the goats for blocking exit/entrance into another part of the run? Sounds to me like he's afraid, the other dog just pushes her way through (which would be normal, with no issues and ignores the goats for the most part) but Turk is telling them to get away from the gate. Seems to me like he may have had some hard buttings from the goats. I don't the behavior described as protecting a door way. If he was protecting the area he's in it would be growling/barking as the goats try to come in and aggression would escalate if the goats ignored him. If he's attempting to move out of one area to another and he's been corrected by the goats that may be what you're seeing. I could be completely wrong and still misunderstanding.
     
  8. zzGypsy

    zzGypsy Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:that makes sense.
    he's outside, they're inside.
    I think he's telling them to get out of the door, or out of the inside of the run alltogether so he can come in.

    interesting that you think it might be fear of the goats... in general these goats yield pretty quickly everywhere but the door, and there I think they'd yield except he's blocking the door to their escape route.

    maybe this is an issue developing because of the doors, and could be avoided by changing the setup until this dog has more time to mature.

    I've got more fencing going up, it'll give a larger yard with a 12x50 run in shed and no box canyon... hopefully it will be done by the end of next weekend.

    I know turk may end up washing out of the program but I want to give him the right opportunity to succeed if he can, and not create artificial issues.
     
  9. Jamie_Dog_Trainer

    Jamie_Dog_Trainer Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jul 8, 2008
    Washington State
    Quote:that makes sense.
    he's outside, they're inside.
    I think he's telling them to get out of the door, or out of the inside of the run alltogether so he can come in.

    interesting that you think it might be fear of the goats... in general these goats yield pretty quickly everywhere but the door, and there I think they'd yield except he's blocking the door to their escape route.

    maybe this is an issue developing because of the doors, and could be avoided by changing the setup until this dog has more time to mature.

    I've got more fencing going up, it'll give a larger yard with a 12x50 run in shed and no box canyon... hopefully it will be done by the end of next weekend.

    I know turk may end up washing out of the program but I want to give him the right opportunity to succeed if he can, and not create artificial issues.

    I totally understand this. You should give him every chance. I don't know if you're creating "artificial" issues though, he should be able to adapt to the situation as your other dog has. She seems to have a more normal base temperament.
     
  10. Bear Foot Farm

    Bear Foot Farm Overrun With Chickens

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    Mar 31, 2008
    Grifton NC
    he's a complete love with me, seeks petting (perhaps more than I'd prefer, given his job)

    He only seeks it because you give it to him

    Ignore him more and he will seek it less

    All the other behavior sounds perfectly normal to me. He's still a young puppy and will be for more than a year.
    Confining him to a run won't help him learn anything, and will just cause more problems.
    As long as he's not getting too physical with the goats there's nothing to worry about at this point​
     

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