Long term feed storage using Co2

Discussion in 'Feeding & Watering Your Flock' started by perchie.girl, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. perchie.girl

    perchie.girl Desert Dweller Premium Member

    I am curious has anyone ever used CO2 or Dry Ice to displace the oxygen in your food storage containers? I have toyed with this thought because they use it to help preserve wheat for long term storage (disaster preparedness)

    http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/FN-371.pdf

    This article says the Dry Ice does not effect the quality of the grain or its ability to sprout if you are storing seed for sprouting. But that it is effective for killing off bugs for home storage, as well as keeping food from going rancid. (oxygen exclusion)

    Any thoughts.... any people into long term storage?
     
  2. A.T. Hagan

    A.T. Hagan Don't Panic

    5,381
    133
    303
    Aug 13, 2007
    North/Central Florida
    Yes, I've done this. Using 55 gallon plastic drums, dry ice, and buckets of Damp Rid desiccant.

    It's important the drums seal fully, they are stored out of contact with the ground and out of the direct sun.

    For whole grains you should get an easy two years of storage. Maybe a good deal more depending on your climate. Here in Florida it's hot for such a long part of the year that I don't try to store feed for really long periods since it's kept in my non-climate controlled workshop. You folks in the more northern areas could do a lot better.

    This is for whole grains. For milled feed (as in ground up) I would not try to store it more than a year no matter how you packed it unless you can keep it in climate controlled storage. The more sensitive vitamins degrade quickly relative to the more stable carbs, proteins, and minerals.
     
  3. perchie.girl

    perchie.girl Desert Dweller Premium Member

    A.T. Hagan :

    Yes, I've done this. Using 55 gallon plastic drums, dry ice, and buckets of Damp Rid desiccant.

    It's important the drums seal fully, they are stored out of contact with the ground and out of the direct sun.

    For whole grains you should get an easy two years of storage. Maybe a good deal more depending on your climate. Here in Florida it's hot for such a long part of the year that I don't try to store feed for really long periods since it's kept in my non-climate controlled workshop. You folks in the more northern areas could do a lot better.

    This is for whole grains. For milled feed (as in ground up) I would not try to store it more than a year no matter how you packed it unless you can keep it in climate controlled storage. The more sensitive vitamins degrade quickly relative to the more stable carbs, proteins, and minerals.

    This is good news. I am in the high desert we dont get the high temps that the low desert does but its up around 105-110 a few weeks out of the summer. I have a place to store the grain that while its open to the outside air it is always shaded. A patio room. My idea is to buy in bulk for my horse goats and poultry. Basically Alfalfa pellets, COB, and Flock Raiser. Plus BOSS. All my animals get BOSS.

    If I wanted to dispense a portion of the feed is it acceptable to add more CO2? Damp Rid Desiccant What is that? I have seen desiccant packets in Jerky is that the same stuff? We are at around 10-15 percent humidity here most of the year. Annual rain fall including snow is between 7-10 inches per year.​
     
  4. Chemguy

    Chemguy Chillin' With My Peeps

    681
    32
    131
    May 30, 2011
    Springfield, Ohio
    Hi All,

    Does this really work? I'd think that CO2 and any moisture would make the feed acidic, and cause it to break down even more quickly than just sealing the drum.
     
  5. perchie.girl

    perchie.girl Desert Dweller Premium Member

    Quote:The idea is to displace oxygen which is necessary for bacteria and various other critters that can break down the feed. That's why in home canning for meats you cook in a pressure cooker to drive out the oxygen from the container. A really interesting thing happens when you melt down Dry ice. It doesn't go into a liquid state it goes directly into a gaseous state. Since Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air it literally will Fill up a container similar to filling a bucket with water. As the Co2 fills the container up the Air is pushed up and out of the container. Also A.T. mentioned a desiccant.... I am still researching that.
     
  6. A.T. Hagan

    A.T. Hagan Don't Panic

    5,381
    133
    303
    Aug 13, 2007
    North/Central Florida
    perchie.girl :

    A.T. Hagan :

    Yes, I've done this. Using 55 gallon plastic drums, dry ice, and buckets of Damp Rid desiccant.

    It's important the drums seal fully, they are stored out of contact with the ground and out of the direct sun.

    For whole grains you should get an easy two years of storage. Maybe a good deal more depending on your climate. Here in Florida it's hot for such a long part of the year that I don't try to store feed for really long periods since it's kept in my non-climate controlled workshop. You folks in the more northern areas could do a lot better.

    This is for whole grains. For milled feed (as in ground up) I would not try to store it more than a year no matter how you packed it unless you can keep it in climate controlled storage. The more sensitive vitamins degrade quickly relative to the more stable carbs, proteins, and minerals.

    This is good news. I am in the high desert we dont get the high temps that the low desert does but its up around 105-110 a few weeks out of the summer. I have a place to store the grain that while its open to the outside air it is always shaded. A patio room. My idea is to buy in bulk for my horse goats and poultry. Basically Alfalfa pellets, COB, and Flock Raiser. Plus BOSS. All my animals get BOSS.

    If I wanted to dispense a portion of the feed is it acceptable to add more CO2? Damp Rid Desiccant What is that? I have seen desiccant packets in Jerky is that the same stuff? We are at around 10-15 percent humidity here most of the year. Annual rain fall including snow is between 7-10 inches per year.​

    It can be made to work for the COB and the BOSS and maybe for the alfalfa pellets. It won't work well for the Flock Raiser.

    Gas purging such as what you are thinking of works best when the space between the food particles (the intersitial space) is large enough to permit easy flow of the heavier CO2 as it rises up from the bottom pushing out the lighter, oxygen rich head gas. The Flock Raiser is too fine in texture to allow that.

    If you live in the high desert then there may be no need for the desiccant if you pack the drums in a dry time of year. By desert standards Florida is humid even in our dryer periods. During the rainy season it is very humid so a desiccant can be beneficial if you can use enough of it to make a practical difference.

    There is little difference between human food storage and animal feed storage except that animal feed is usually stored in larger containers in non-climate controlled locations. It's the stored outside (as in a barn, etc.) that matters the most since heat plays a major role in loss of the more sensitive nutrients such as many vitamins, rancidity of fats, and so on. Properly packed you can store whole grains for at least several years, probably the alfalfa pellets, but I would not try to keep milled feed such as the Flock Raiser for long periods of time. Over a winter sure, across a summer not so much.​
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  7. A.T. Hagan

    A.T. Hagan Don't Panic

    5,381
    133
    303
    Aug 13, 2007
    North/Central Florida
    Quote:The food (or feed in this case) has to be properly dry, typically below 10% moisture content, to store well no matter what gas is used. CO2 has some advantages over nitrogen or argon in that it can be effective in eliminating insect life at much lower concentrations and has some anti-fungal properties as well.

    Storing animal feed using these techniques is somewhat uncommon. It's most used in personal family food storage.
     
  8. perchie.girl

    perchie.girl Desert Dweller Premium Member

    A.T. Hagan :

    perchie.girl :

    A.T. Hagan :

    Yes, I've done this. Using 55 gallon plastic drums, dry ice, and buckets of Damp Rid desiccant.

    It's important the drums seal fully, they are stored out of contact with the ground and out of the direct sun.

    For whole grains you should get an easy two years of storage. Maybe a good deal more depending on your climate. Here in Florida it's hot for such a long part of the year that I don't try to store feed for really long periods since it's kept in my non-climate controlled workshop. You folks in the more northern areas could do a lot better.

    This is for whole grains. For milled feed (as in ground up) I would not try to store it more than a year no matter how you packed it unless you can keep it in climate controlled storage. The more sensitive vitamins degrade quickly relative to the more stable carbs, proteins, and minerals.

    This is good news. I am in the high desert we dont get the high temps that the low desert does but its up around 105-110 a few weeks out of the summer. I have a place to store the grain that while its open to the outside air it is always shaded. A patio room. My idea is to buy in bulk for my horse goats and poultry. Basically Alfalfa pellets, COB, and Flock Raiser. Plus BOSS. All my animals get BOSS.

    If I wanted to dispense a portion of the feed is it acceptable to add more CO2? Damp Rid Desiccant What is that? I have seen desiccant packets in Jerky is that the same stuff? We are at around 10-15 percent humidity here most of the year. Annual rain fall including snow is between 7-10 inches per year.

    It can be made to work for the COB and the BOSS and maybe for the alfalfa pellets. It won't work well for the Flock Raiser.

    Gas purging such as what you are thinking of works best when the space between the food particles (the intersitial space) is large enough to permit easy flow of the heavier CO2 as it rises up from the bottom pushing out the lighter, oxygen rich head gas. The Flock Raiser is too fine in texture to allow that.

    If you live in the high desert then there may be no need for the desiccant if you pack the drums in a dry time of year. By desert standards Florida is humid even in our dryer periods. During the rainy season it is very humid so a desiccant can be beneficial if you can use enough of it to make a practical difference.

    There is little difference between human food storage and animal feed storage except that animal feed is usually stored in larger containers in non-climate controlled locations. It's the stored outside (as in a barn, etc.) that matters the most since heat plays a major role in loss of the more sensitive nutrients such as many vitamins, rancidity of fats, and so on. Properly packed you can store whole grains for at least several years, probably the alfalfa pellets, but I would try to keep milled feed such as the Flock Raiser for long periods of time. Over a winter sure, across a summer not so much.​

    Good to know about the spaces between the food particles.... At least I could store the rest.​
     
  9. karlamaria

    karlamaria Chillin' With My Peeps

    2,333
    52
    226
    Jan 30, 2011
    Western montana
    We do the five gallon buckets with oxygen absorbers. Using Mylar bags. We plan to have 20 buckets on hand at all times, rotating as we go.we only have 5 girls now. Of course we do all our storage foods the same wa lol.
     
  10. SmokinChick

    SmokinChick Chillin' With My Peeps

    411
    10
    123
    Apr 27, 2011
    Kingsville, MD
    perchie.girl :

    Quote:The idea is to displace oxygen which is necessary for bacteria and various other critters that can break down the feed. That's why in home canning for meats you cook in a pressure cooker to drive out the oxygen from the container. A really interesting thing happens when you melt down Dry ice. It doesn't go into a liquid state it goes directly into a gaseous state. Since Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air it literally will Fill up a container similar to filling a bucket with water. As the Co2 fills the container up the Air is pushed up and out of the container. Also A.T. mentioned a desiccant.... I am still researching that.

    The home canner is used to STERILIZE also, not just drive out the air.
    BOTULISUM IS CAUSED BY AN ANAEROBIC BACTERIA. that is a bacteria that thrives in a zero oxygen enviornment. Please be careful in your thinking that it will be safe to eat just because there was no oxygen present.​
     

BackYard Chickens is proudly sponsored by