Lost 5,4 wk old chicks, now my all black cutie is listless

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by dsvabulas, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. dsvabulas

    dsvabulas In the Brooder

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    Jun 2, 2009
    Grafton MA
    I don't know what's wrong. They are on medicated chick starter, clean pine shavings, fresh water w/ acv, and 100 watt red lamps moved 4 ft away. They are not huddling. I put roosts in that they use. There are 9 chicks in the cage. It's dimensions are about 2 1/2 X 3 1/2 and 3 1/2 tall. The chicks that died got lethargic, didn't eat or drink, fluffed out, and would not move. I gave them water with a little mash diluted in:( with an eye dropper to no avail. I don't want to lose this one! He's all black, beak and legs with a little crest. The chicks are passing about a week apart. Poops look fine. Help!! Thank You, Donna
     
  2. Imp

    Imp All things share the same breath- Chief Seattle

    Quote:Boy, I wish I was better with the emergencies. I've seen posts with reccomendation to give poly-vi-sol w/o iron, pedialyte, and/or sugar water. and per your other post- 4 weeks is not too young for egg. I would suggest seperating out any ill chicks. Hopefully it isn't some disease that has spread throughout all of them. Sounds like you got a handle on things. Hopefully someone with more experience with this will come along and offer better advice. Try doing a search. Good luck.

    Imp
     
  3. dsvabulas

    dsvabulas In the Brooder

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    Jun 2, 2009
    Grafton MA
    Thanks Imp. It's worrisome! I'm thinking maybe I need corid but not sure, but I suppose it's one of those things I should have on hand, along with vetrx.
     
  4. Imp

    Imp All things share the same breath- Chief Seattle

    It seems to me if they are dying, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying anything.

    Imp
     
  5. jenni2142

    jenni2142 Songster

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    South Carolina
    Is there any discharge from eyes or nostrils? Any other symptoms at all? Every time mine have hunched up and not eaten they have needed antibiotics. I hope someone with more knowledge comes along to help.
     
  6. Glenda L Heywood

    Glenda L Heywood Songster

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    dsvabulas wrote:
    I don't know what's wrong. They are on medicated chick starter, clean pine shavings, fresh water w/ acv, and 100 watt red lamps moved 4 ft away. They are not huddling. I put roosts in that they use. There are 9 chicks in the cage. It's dimensions are about 2 1/2 X 3 1/2 and 3 1/2 tall.
    ANSWER
    this is too small of an area for 9 chicks
    have they had opportunity to be out on soil?



    The chicks that died got lethargic, didn't eat or drink, fluffed out, and would not move.
    ANSWER
    this sounds like coccidiosis
    and yes you need either sulmet or corid 9.6%
    and the whole lot of them need treating


    I gave them water with a little mash diluted in:( with an eye dropper to no avail. I don't want to lose this one! He's all black, beak and legs with a little crest. The chicks are passing about a week apart. Poops look fine. Help!! Thank You, Donna

    here is what I would do to help them immediately
    find some corrid if they do not have it in your twon call
    first state vet and get some

    First State Vet Supply - Home of the Chicken Doctor - Online Store... First State · My Account · Cart Contents · Checkout ... Copyright [​IMG] 2008 First State Vet Supply Powered by Shorefast Internet.
    www.firststatevetsupply.com/store/ - Cached - Similar


    HERE IS THE RECIPE FOR THEM ASAP YOU GET THE CORID OR SULMET
    personally I feel sulmet is the best thing here
    as it will doctor the gut for the lathargic problem
    generally they have a brown diarrhea also

    this info is on brown diarrhea and some help from a friend of mine


    (1 did you ever worm them?
    (2 do any of them not eat or drink yet?

    (3 do you see any signs of blood in the manure?
    can be slightly if first day
    most times they only drink not eat

    (4 for coccidiosis I like amproylium best generally corid
    but most feed stores don't stock it
    so she mentions sulmet

    Nathalie Ross"

    (1 coccidiosis I think it might be helpful for you to know that coccidia are
    very VERY hard to trace in a fecal. When I worked as a vet tech, it
    was common procedure to go ahead and treat with a combination
    antibiotic/antiprotazoan medication like Sulfa products (Sulmet being the most
    common) based on symptom diagnosis rather than physical evidence of the
    oocysts. use Sulmet to treat them for coccidiosis


    This is less true of other parasites like roundworms and such,
    but still true. Often vets recommend a routine worming program to kill
    worms not found. Worms aren't always shed into the fecal matter, nor
    are their eggs, but that doesn't mean they aren't up there chowing down
    on your birds' food in the gut and leaving scars which make it harder
    for the birds to digest feed in the future.

    (2 worms
    So, think about a twice a year worming program. My personal program is
    to worm in the fall with Ivermectin, in the spring with either
    Ivermectin or another BROAD spectrum medication like tramisol or worm-ex.
    Note: I didn't mention piperazine. Piperazine is a one-worm wormer -
    rounds only. You'll want to use it for your very first worming to decrease
    the parasite loads (which are undetectable unless they're really very
    heavy) to prevent the possibility of the bird going into anaphylactic
    shock or being blocked. These two last dreadful things can happen if
    there are parasites up there you don't know about, and you use a
    super-wormer (like the 2 mentioned above) which kill everything all at once. So
    do piperazine the first time, or with new birds with unknown histories,
    then use the super-wormers from then on.

    (3 gut bacteria
    At 7 weeks, the babies are still in the
    process of getting their gut bacteria in order. See, they're born
    without any bacteria at all in their gut. So they eat at day 2, and put
    food in there as a food source for themselves but also for bacteria.
    Basically, it's first-come-first-serve for bacteria. If the bad ones get
    there first, they take over and your birds get ill. IF there are some
    good but mostly bad, the same thing happens. If you give your birds
    probiotics (substances containing live beneficial bacteria) your GOOD
    bacteria will have the advantage. Those good bacteria crowd out the bad,
    make it impossible for the bad bacteria to live in anything but minimal
    numbers, and thus help your birds to stay healthy. So I always
    recommend giving probiotics weekly from week 2 til point of lay. Then I move
    to once a month or as needed. You can use live-culture yogurt

    (1 teaspoon per 8 newly hatched, moving up to 1 teaspoon per point of lay
    bantam, 1 tablespoon per point of lay large fowl - no more please). You can
    also use powdered livestock probiotics (Probios dispersable powder
    being my absolute favorite - it's the choice of exotic bird breeders, and I
    also have hookbills).

    Or, you can go to the human health food store
    and pick up a human supplement like "acidophilus" (Lactobacilus
    acidophilus), or a combination of acidophilus and B. bifidum sold to combat
    yeast infections. The latter is a particular useful thing for a poultry
    hobbiest to have. The addition of b. bifidum helps combat thrush.
    Thrush is essentially a yeast infection that is common to birds because of
    the way their crops store feed in wet conditions. Things tend to get
    fungus and yeast there, and thus the yeast infection. That infection
    goes throughout the bird's system and is really a mess, so that
    bifidum/acidophilus mix is the best. Try to find a non-dairy liquid, and you'll
    have the ultimate probiotic.

    So, there are some options. I'd tend towards those.
    Also, if you're
    prescribed antibiotics for your birds' infection, you'll want to give
    PRObiotics daily during treatment. Antibiotics are unfortunately going
    to kill the good bacteria which are having such a difficult time getting
    established in y our babies as it is. The antibiotics will possibly do
    as much harm as good, so combat that bad effect with probiotics. Try
    giving them daily for about 3 days after the last batch of medicine.

    (4 E.Coli
    In case your babies are said to have an infection of E. coli (most
    likely case) then you can try putting some vitamin E in their feed.



    ( GLH- advises using the 1000 mg capsules cut end off and squeeze into wet mash
    and putting in a wet mash for them to eat
    ( use one capsule Vit Eper bird treating and do this twice a day for a week

    )
    Vitamin E helps fix E. coli overpopulations. You know what else helps fight
    E. coli? Guess:

    b. bifidum. It secrets a substance that E. coli just
    can't stand. See where this is going?

    Nathalie Ross, Houston, TX

    GLH I will put more about sulmet on the next post

    email me with any questions
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  7. Glenda L Heywood

    Glenda L Heywood Songster

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    This information on using sulmet is very important
    besure and make the wet mash with sulmet so it will be given by hand as a wet sauce with medication

    at best if they won't eat it then make just water
    3 tsp of water and 1 tsp of sulmet
    put it by eye dropper in the chicks beak three time today
    then it may eat the food and water and sulmet
    all the time make sure it is in the water for the rest of the chicks

    and cut tip off the vit E and drizzle it in the chicks beak


    email me if any questions so you are not confused Glenda

    Nathalie's explanation of sulmet is
    Sulmet is sulfamethazine. coridis amproylium
    Sulmet is used for treatment against bacterial scours in cattle, which just happens to be E. coli.

    It also is used against Coryza, Pastuerella, and Salmonella Pullorum in poultry. It's an old fashioned sulfur drug, very broad spectrum, safe for babies, easy to give.


    then give them the wet mash probiotic so they can make good gut flora

    Here is the way I would use and have used sulmet for coccidiosis

    Now what to do and what to feed after medicating for coccidiosis

    to make sure they eat the medicated wet mash do this first and second day of treating and medication in the water 7 days
    also I use the wet mash with sulmet or corid

    FOR 9 CHICKS WITH SULMET
    18 tsp of dry crumble feed
    36 tsp of water
    3 tsp of sulmet
    mix good and feed each chick 2 tsp of this


    if using corid 9.6%
    for 9 chicks
    18 tsp OF of dry mash
    36 tsp of water
    add 2 tbsp of corid 9.6% to the water
    feed 2 tsp per chicken for a feeding
    feed this two mornings to get the medication in the birds
    also at same time put the corid or sulmet in the drinking water for 7 days

    each chick get 2 tsp of the wet mash with coccidiosis meds

    speckled hen gives corid(9.6%) liquid in 3-4 tbsp per gallon of water

    and after medicating give the following things


    either the corid amproylium or the sulmet will work for coccidiosis but I think sulmet is the best answer now

    but now you have a difficient gut problem with the E.coli
    and it needs to have the Vitamin E and selenium put in the wet mash probiotic to help the E.coli gut problem
    do this


    now the
    natural probiotic recipe is is:
    1 qt of dry crumbles
    2 qts of milk, sweet, sour, or buttermilk or a mixture of all or some
    1/4 cup of non flavored yoguart ( no artificial sweetmer)
    mix good


    NOW THE IMPORTANT INGRIEDIENT FOR EACH CHICK FED
    and add 1- 1000 mg of Vit E by cutting the end off the vit E capsule for each chick fed this wet mash
    putting it in the wet mash


    this for each chick your treating
    so for each chick use 2 tsp of mixture and 1-1000 mg of Vit E
    and 1 sleinium tablet crushed in the wet mash probiotic
    twice a day for them till the manure is solid

    and feed each chick
    2 tsp full of the wet mash probiotic and what they will clean up in 20-30 minutes
    then clean wet feeders and restock dry crumbles

    do this twice a day for a week
    till the chicks manure is right
    then quit the Vit E make just the wet mash probiotic
    then once a week for life

    All the while after mdicating the birds use
    do not use ACV with medication


    2 tbsp of apple cider vinegar per gallon of the chicken water so their gut flora wil be regulated they should have this at least 3-5 days a week
    then three days aweek after they are over coccidiosis



    the vit's are neccessary to clean up the damaged gut problem
    take all the electrolytes out of the water



    email me any questions so you are not confused
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  8. nhnanna

    nhnanna Songster

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    The chicken coop
    I agree with the sulmet. My daughter lost 6 wlh babies and 2 banties with the same symtoms as yours. We put the rest on the sulmet for 10 days and the others are fine now. We also gave them plain yogurt with the starter crumbles mixed and the rest are doing fine now. She got her birds at the local TSC here.
    Good luck and keep us posted.
     
  9. Mrs MIA

    Mrs MIA Chick Magnet

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    Mar 3, 2008
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=90731

    Cocci
    seems to pop up more during the warm rainy season. I keep Amprolium (Corid 9.6%) on hand as I can't just run to the store to get it here. I've gotten it at First State, but www.Jedds.com has a 16 oz bottle for a pretty good price too.

    Basic steps are
    a) separate the chicks and either put the affected ones on fresh shavings and change it often, or put them on wire so they can't get to their poo. Change all the bedding.

    b) add a heat lamp so they don't have to expend energy keeping warm. You know how a warm blanket feels really nice when you're sick? [​IMG]

    c) cut back on the protein... no yogurt until after treatment is done. I mixed ground oatmeal 50/50 with their chick crumbles.

    d) fresh clean water daily dosed with Sulmet or Amprolium as specified on the bottle.

    The cocci can also impair their immune system at this time, so if they're really not responding I've given Tylan 50 injectible to make sure that nothing else takes hold while they're recovering.

    I agree that it seems like that space is a little too small for that number of chicks. Can you increase their space at all or split them up?

    I found out the hard way that chicks don't ever have to go outside to get cocci. All it takes is for me to step in their enclosure with contaminated shoes once... that's why biosecurity is so important.
    [​IMG]
    I'm sorry for your troubles... good luck.

    Edited to add:
    Also a thing to check for is what medication is in the chick feed... I buy chick starter that says "medicated chick feed", but I finally read the label and realized that it does not contain Amprol as cocci prevention. It contains something else that is supposed to "enhance the well being of the birds"... check the ingredients to make sure you're getting Amprol or Amprolium if you're trying to prevent cocci. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
  10. dsvabulas

    dsvabulas In the Brooder

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    Jun 2, 2009
    Grafton MA
    Thanks Everyone....it seems a bit overwhelming! I have 3 of these pens w/ 9 chicks in each. I thought they were okay because they all get along, but obviously I wasn't seeing the complete picture. My husband is working on their coop now! I will call a feed store about an hour and a 1/2 away, another nice byc person emailed me about. I wonder why most feed stores don't carry it. I will keep you updated. Donna
     

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