low hatch rate bcm genes?

Discussion in 'Incubating & Hatching Eggs' started by kefiren, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. kefiren

    kefiren Chillin' With My Peeps

    it is day 22 of incubation and i've got a bunch of olive eggers still in the bator, unpipped--all seemed developed during routine candling at day 14.

    i'm wondering if there may be something wrong with my bcms? truly, they haven't seemed that strong! i bought them from a local breeder--they aren't hatchery. perhaps they are too interbred? or do they have different needs than other chicks while in the egg? i did make some mistakes with the hatch, but if it was me why did it only affect the eggs with BCM genes? 5 of the eggs were olive eggs (bcm roo), and only one was a chocolate egg (bcm hen).

    the other (non-bcm) mixed breed eggs were (4 out of 5) and (3 out of 4) with this hatch, and have been happily fostering with a broody out in the barn for a day and a half now! so i have little hope for the olive eggers in the bator.

    the little bcm-based olive egger chick i did get from the (1 out of 6) eggs is black with feather legs and is very cute! he took his time hatching and got a tiny bit stuck to one part of his shell, but nothing serious.

    how long should i leave the bator running?
     
  2. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member Project Manager

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    I have read it can take as much as 25/26 days, let me see if I can find you the links I have saved on testing and when... brb
     
  3. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member Project Manager

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    The following info I have saved in the Hatching Eggs 101 Article... this is a paste from there....... Let me know how it turns out!!! Sally


    Delayed Incubation? http://newenglandbantamclub.homestead.com/delayedincubation.html
    If you hatch eggs in an incubator, particularly one without a fan, you may find the eggs don't all hatch at the same time. Normally chicken eggs take 21 days to hatch and duck eggs 28.
    However, you may set a batch of eggs and find some chicks seem to hatch a couple days early and other may be 2 or 3 days late. The same thing can even happen under a hen. What's happening?
    Poultry are really pretty primitive. While birds are warm blooded, they are just barely warm blooded as embryos. If heat is removed, development stops. Then, when the heat returns, development starts back up. Development begins almost immediately. Within 16 hours after incubation commences, you can already see a resemblance to chick embryo. The backbone is visible within 20 hours and the eye begins to form by 24 hours. The heart begins to form by 25 hours and begins to beat by 42 hours.
    If you leave eggs in the nest, the time hen(s) spend on the nest egg laying may warm the eggs enough to for development to start. If you then gather those eggs and set them in the incubator along with others, those eggs will have a head start and appear to hatch earlier than you had planned. The key may be whether on not the heart has begun to beat. If it has and then the egg is cooled down, the result would likely be a dead embryo.
    The other reason for a staggered hatch may be caused by different temperatures in different parts of the incubator. If temperatures are a degree or two lower from one area to another, the embryos may still develop, but at a slower rate. Sometimes these fail to hatch but other times it just takes longer. In my experience with wild wood ducks, eggs can hatch anywhere from 27 to 30 days depending upon how frequently the hen leaves the nest and how warm or cold the weather is. You might expect this not to occur under a broody hen, but if she is on a lot of eggs, some eggs may get pushed to the outside edges and not be as warm. If the eggs get randomly redistributed by the hen everything evens out, but if an egg or two get caught up in the nesting material for a day or so, they may take longer to hatch.
    If you are concerned about staggered hatches, gather eggs frequently to prevent the accidental onset of incubation, limit the number of eggs you give a hen or, if using an incubator, don't fill it from corner to corner. Set fewer eggs and cluster them in the center. If you set more eggs, rotate them around so each tends to experience all the temperature spots in the incubator. And be patient. Give eggs an extra 48 hours beyond the hatch date before you throw them out. You may be pleasantly surprised.
    H W Heusmann
    After the chick has made a hole in the shell, it stops pipping for three to eight hours and rests. During this time, it is acclimating its lungs to the outside atmosphere. After the resting stage is completed, the second stage of pipping begins....


    The chick begins to turn slowly inside the egg. As it turns, usually counter-clockwise, the cutting edge of the chick tooth continues to chip away. In two to five hours, the chick has made about three quarters of a turn inside the egg. As the chick progresses in its movement around the shell, it begins pushing on the egg cap (large end). Squirming and struggling, the chick works feverishly for about 40 minutes pushing at the cap. Finally with a vigorous shove, the chick breaks free from the shell, still wet and panting.

    When the chick is freed completely from the shell, it lies still. Its energy has been virtually exhausted, and it is extremely tired. After a rest of some few minutes, the chick begins to rise to its feet and gain coordination of its muscles. Within a few days the egg tooth, its usefulness over, will disappear. (http://chickscope.beckman.uiuc.edu/resources/egg_to_chick/procedures.html)

    If you feel he may be SHRINK wrapped (only YOU know what your cells, weight, and Humidity have been) maybe you should start reading how to help a chick...... I have watched a ton of videos on youtube and its done all the time with no problems and HAS SAVED many HEALTHY chicks!! PROOF on all those videos!


    "Shrink wrap" vs. "Sticky chick"? https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/491421/shrink-wrap-vs-sticky-chick#post_6242987

    Shrink wrapped: before pipping, both inner and out membranes dry tight around the chick; caused by too little humidity throughout incubation

    Sticky chick: after pipping, the liquids dry becoming glue-like followed by concrete-like; caused by too little humidity during lockdown

    Wet sticky or Swollen: the chick is swollen with water or simply very wet and sticky; caused by too high humidity throughout incubation

    Drowning: the whitish outer membrane is dry while the clearish inner membrane is wet, binding the chick; also caused by too high humidity thoughout incubation

    *Chicks experiencing more than one of the extreme conditions can exhibit multiple issues.
    *These same issues can also occur during natural incubation, under a brooding hen.

    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/491421/shrink-wrap-vs-sticky-chick#post_6242987

    Float Testing, Checking Egg Viability For Late Or Overdue Hatching Give Eggs A Full 24 Hrs Overdue Before Float Testing. It Works On All Bird Eggs- Period! Takes Very Little Equipment Or Time To Do And Is Easy To Perform.

    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/383525/float-testing-checking-egg-viability-for-late-or-overdue-hatching

    Eggtopsy: What happened to my egg?
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/363717/eggtopsy-what-happened-to-my-egg-graphic-pictures


    check out
    Trouble Shooting Failures with Egg Incubation @ http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/trouble.html


    This is also a great pdf with pics: paste link in browser search:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=early%20emrbyo%20death%20%20incubation&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDsQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepoultrysite.com%2Fdownloads%2Fdownload%2F171%2F&ei=UllaUMXFHsmrygGnjoHICw&usg=AFQjCNGgYxCBYwBex31MS5w2McdnpH1zbw

    ALSO this PDF at the last pages have a chart that shows what could have happened.... http://gallus.tamu.edu/library/extpublications/b6092.pdf

    [​IMG]

    Pipped eggs that do not hatch

    If chick embryos develop to the pipping stage, or at first shell cracking at hatching, they are normally healthy enough to hatch unless some incubator adjustment prevents it from happening. The problem is usually caused by either 1) poor ventilation or 2) improper humidity.

    The air exchange requirement within an incubator is greatest during the last day of incubation. The chick embryo's oxygen requirement continually increases during development and especially when breathing using the respiratory system just before hatching. The vent openings are frequently restricted at this time in an attempt to boost incubator humidity. Instead of helping the chick hatch, the chick is suffocated from lack of ventilation. Never decrease ventilation openings at hatching in an attempt to increase humidity. Increase humidity by other methods. If any vent adjustments are made, they should be opened more.


    Another reason for mortality during hatching is improper humidity adjustment. The deaths can be produced from too much humidity during the entire incubation period or from too little humidity during the hatching period.


    The desired egg weight loss during incubation caused by water evaporation is about 12 percent. If humidity during incubation is kept too high, adequate water evaporation from the egg is prevented. The chick can drown in the water remaining in the shell at hatching. A dried coating around the chick's nostrils and beak indicates that drowning was likely. Attention to maintaining proper incubation humidity during incubation will reduce the potential for this problem at hatching time.

    If the humidity is allowed to decrease after the chick pips the shell, the membranes within the shell can dry-out and stick to the chick. This prevents the chick from turning inside the shell and stops the hatching process. The chick eventually dies. If the membranes around the shell opening appear dried and shrunken, the cause is probably low humidity during hatching. This condition can occur quickly (within 1 or 2 minutes) when the incubator is opened to remove or assist other chicks that are hatching. When hatching begins and proper incubator conditions are attained, the incubator should never be opened until after all chicks are hatched and ready for placement in the brooder. http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/poultry_pipped.html


    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/458759/how-to-tell-if-a-chick-drowns Per Gypsy: Chicks dying during incubation because of excess humidity is NOT the same thing as chicks drowning. It's a very badly misused term. An embryo can fail to develop and die at any stage of the incubation. And excess humidity can be the cause of the embryo dying. But a chick can only drown AFTER it has pipped internally into the air cell and started trying to breathe air. If there is excess fluid in the egg at this time, the chick can inhale it and drown. But before it pips into the air sac, it isn't breathing air, so how could it drown?

    So a chick that has drowned will have pipped internally into the air cell. It might also have pipped the shell. If you're doing carton hatching I think it would be quite easy to see. Break a small hole through the shell into the air cell and have a look. If it has broken through to the air cell then drowning is a possibility. Tip the egg up and see if any fluid drips out. At this stage of development and hatching, there should be almost no liquid left in the egg so if fluid drips out, the chick most likely did drown. I think a chick that drowned could have either an unabsorbed yolk sac or an almost totally absorbed one, depending on whether it drowned immediately after breaking through to the air sac, or after 12 hours of resting and absorbing the yolk. That is definitely possible, depending on the positioning of the egg. Also even with lots of fluid in the egg, the chick might be lucky and not drown. If it manages to keep its beak above the fluid, it can still hatch okay.

    A chick that hasn't pipped internally into the air cell has NOT drowned. It may have died during incubation due to excess humidity conditions, but technically, it has not drowned. So do the same thing and have a look in the egg. If the chick looks almost fully developed but it hasn't broken through to the air sac, break the egg open into a bowl and see if it looks like there is a lot of excess fluid. The more fully developed the chick is, the less fluid there should be.




     
  4. kefiren

    kefiren Chillin' With My Peeps

    wow, thank you so much for the complete and informative answer! i'm fully armed with information now, and can proceed with confidence! :)

    you are so generous of heart! good deed for the day is done you can relax now!

    excellent!
     
  5. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member Project Manager

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    LOL it was just a copy paste from the article on my signature, but yes I did alot of research before I got my eggs lol !! But sure hope it helps!! Good luck!!! [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
  6. kefiren

    kefiren Chillin' With My Peeps

    ok, hatch is done. i did partial eggtopsies but really don't know what they mean.

    it sort of seems like the air cells were kind of large, but it is 3 days past due date and maybe that is just further evaporation?

    the membrane was darkish.

    the babies don't seem shrink wrapped, or upside down. none had pipped internally either. there was a little liquid in with each baby inside the membrane. don't know if that is normal.

    a few were small and maybe quit earlier than lockdown.

    they all seemed kind of smallish, except for one which i never even dreamed would hatch because it was refrigerated.

    maybe.... they just didn't have the "oomph" needed to finish? well, the hens were just about to go into moult, and it was getting to be fall etc.

    also, i hatched in egg cartons and at first the egg cartons were getting soaked on the bottom. i cleared that problem up as quickly as i could (within a few hours) and don't THINK that killed them.
     
  7. Sally Sunshine

    Sally Sunshine Cattywampus Angel <straightens Halo> Premium Member Project Manager

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    Quote:awwww! I wonder what went wrong.... so many things can and at once!
     

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