mille fleur x mottled cochin Krys? Patty?

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Msbear, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. Msbear

    Msbear Fancy Banties

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    I've been trying to cross my mille fleur cochins with my huge-cushioned mottleds in order to improve type in my milles. I have been unsuccessful as fertility has become a nightmare. I have tried and failed with AI and will resort to plucking a heck of a lot of feathers next Spring if something doesn't happen soon [​IMG] I have plucked the 3" circle then upped it to 5" and still no go. I have gotten mottled offspring from these guys so I know they have what it takes...

    After several weeks of no fertility I put my mille roo back with my mille hens to at least get some of those going. I hatched out the usual mille color down and also one pure black and one black with some reddish around the face and back. The black downed chick became mottled and the chick with a bit of reddish buff became almost golden-laced..

    Im wondering if these eggs were the lingering fertility of my mottled roo.

    Here's the "laced" pullet.

    [​IMG]
    and below you can see how her cushion is much more round than my other pullets
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    and here she is with the mottled cockeral who, btw, isn't showing tremendous type at this point. ????
    [​IMG]
    Is it more possible that these are side effects of the mille project... that bizarre combinations of the genes in mille fleur can manifest like this?

    Patty, have you bred any birds like this pullet when you did this cross? She gives me hope when I look at her type but much doubt when I consider her pattern. [​IMG]
     
  2. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    .[​IMG] Goodness Erin, how very odd. She's rather pretty.

    How long were the birds apart before the eggs were set?

    Could a non mottled male have paid a visit?

    Are many of the tips of her feathers white or with a white lace? Would you say half or more?

    How old is she now?

    The dark feathering with gold, is a sort of phenotype one could expect from a chick with black or dark down with reddish face, usually at the front of face. What part of her back had the red colour? I think the general colour would not be so unusual except for the lack of "normal" mottling. If both parents are pure for mottling then the offspring would usually be expected to show mottling in a similar manner.

    Your completely black chick feathered up with mottling. That's interesting too; I've seen a few chicks, online, which don't seem to have the "usual" restricted down often associated with black mottled on extended black. Don't black cochins have completely yellow legs? If so they're most likely what are known as eb blacks.


    If she has nice type, & she appears to have at least one mottling gene, I'd put her with a nice millie male they ought to give some millie offspring &, hopefully, improve type.

    Interested in hearing of her progress.
     
  3. Msbear

    Msbear Fancy Banties

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    I set the eggs maybe 2 wks after putting the girls back with my mille roo. I collected all the eggs ...even some gathered just days after being with the mottled roo and whichever ones were fertile ...hatched and this is what I got [​IMG]

    The mottled cockerel I would say would have to have come from the mottled roo... right? Has anyone else hatched straight mottled from millexmille. I know we're dealing with project birds so Im assuming anything goes til the birds breed more consistent.

    As for the pullet, her feahters are pretty much all laced with a tiny bit of white.. but, what I thought was bizarre was that the feathers are black and laced with buff and white instead of being buff then laced with black then white??

    Yes, cochins all have yellow legs and blacks hatch yellow downed with black.

    The only other roos I have are columbian and rosecomb and I don't think either could be the culprit.

    Here's some pics of when they were 2 or 3 day olds
    Im assuming this pullet is the one looking at us right there in the middle.
    [​IMG]

    here's the rear shot ..does not look like there is any red or buff on her back ...my mistake... just a reddish tint to the edge of the down.
    [​IMG]

    I forgot to add her mother may have been my buff columbian looking mille cross. Her father was a dark patterned mille and her mother a pure buff columbian.

    And this pullet is almost 3 months old.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  4. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    Yes, cochins all have yellow legs and blacks hatch yellow downed with black.

    Have I got this right, black cochins hatch with yellow down?
    Blimey....That makes them sound like melanised wheatens.[​IMG]


    As for the pullet, her feahters are pretty much all laced with a tiny bit of white.. but, what I thought was bizarre was that the feathers are black and laced with buff and white instead of being buff then laced with black then white??

    I've seen similar gold lacing before, from a couple of different causes,.....but only as intermediate.
    Really, I don't know what's happening & without breeding from the bird & noting results I couldn't say anything much with any certainty.

    The mottled cockerel I would say would have to have come from the mottled roo... right? Has anyone else hatched straight mottled from millexmille. I know we're dealing with project birds so Im assuming anything goes til the birds breed more consistent.

    One would think so.....erm.....but I cannot say for sure. [​IMG]
    It is rather out of my first hand experience. I have done very few things with mottling with eb black & what I did was a few years ago back in UK. I crossed an eb black leghorn with a eWh speckled sussex. The chicks looked rather like your unusual chick, but the adults, if my memory serves, had much more red but did not have the laced look & of course I didn't expect them to be mottled.

    I'm afraid I'm stabbing in the dark guessing what genes they might or might not have. [​IMG]

    Sorry. [​IMG]
     
  5. Msbear

    Msbear Fancy Banties

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    Here's a link for the black cochin chick pic from cackle hatchery http://www.cacklehatchery.com/Black_Cochin_Bantam_Group.jpg
    more
    black and yellow ...but definitely yellow

    I guess I'll keep her just in case. She does have the best type of any mille pullet I've hatched. I'll keep ya posted with adult pics in a few months.

    to add to this drama.. would it be possible for my mottled roo to carry some recessive gene..like if he carried golden laced... The white around his head always had a tiny bit of brown tinge to it??? ...neverming that theory as golden laced is golden laced with black... and not the other way around [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
  6. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    Here's a link for the black cochin chick pic from cackle hatchery http://www.cacklehatchery.com/Black_Cochin_Bantam_Group.jpg
    more
    black and yellow ...but definitely yellow

    Thanks...They're black with yellow.[​IMG]

    In your place, I'd have a go breeding from her. She appears to have a mottling gene if her type is an improvement......

    There isn't a proper gene, as such, which causes gold lacing on black. Any gold or brown is probably slight loss of melanisers.
     
  7. onthespot

    onthespot Deluxe Dozens

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    That one with all the brown overlaid on black can't be from your mottled roo. ALL of the babies I hatched from one mottled parent that was not split mille were ALL black mottled. The mottled one is probably from your mottled roo, but there is a chance you hatched it from your other birds as well. Frustrating, isn't it?
     
  8. Krys109uk

    Krys109uk Chillin' With My Peeps

    Onthespot wrote: That one with all the brown overlaid on black can't be from your mottled roo.

    It's not quite as easy as that.

    Msbear wrote: The only other roos I have are columbian and rosecomb

    It is unlikely to be from a buff columbian X mille fleur because on an eb bird columbian would restrict black from much of the body.
    I don't know the colour of the rose comb bird; is this a rose comb as in the breed rosecomb? If so the bird looks pure cochin & not like half rosecomb.
    If I understand correctly the only two other options are both mottled (one black mottled & one mille fleur). In that case the laced bird ought to be mottled. [​IMG]

    Onthespot wrote: ALL of the babies I hatched from one mottled parent that was not split mille were ALL black mottled.

    That would be the expected result. Really the pullet is not what would be expected from any of the potential males.​
     
  9. Msbear

    Msbear Fancy Banties

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    Definitely not silver columbian and def not rosecomb... here's a pic
    [​IMG]
    very different types

    The "mottled" juvenile hatched out all black.. not a speck of yellow on him. That's why Im wondering if he's from my mille roo. I think I remember a pullet Lynne hatched that looked all mottled?

    And this little pullet ... who knows?

    Yes... frustrating [​IMG]

    Krys, you say columbian restricts black so a bird with the columbian gene could not be the parent, right? We are making mille from buff columbian. These birds all have black in the body as well as tail and hackles. So, it's my belief that once a pure buff columbian is crossed with mille or mottled, you are only getting one dose so that would relax the restrictors so to speak, right? so a buff columbian x mille cross hen could be the parent. She is much darker than my lighter mille hen so I suspect she is the mother. Now, my mille roo is real red with not enough black... I don't believe he could've fathered this pullet or the mottled cockerel?

    Many of my mille offspring do not have enough black in the back. These are the ones that hatch out wheaten. I believe these are showing stronger columbian genes?? The darker ones have much better patterns but the background color is off. Im trying to put the nice patterned ones back to the nice buff colored ones to see if that will help. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2009
  10. onthespot

    onthespot Deluxe Dozens

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    Quote:It's not quite as easy as that.

    It may not be as "easy as that" but it is a thousand times more the likely explanation, given the time frames and the different roo exposures. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, probably a duck. That's my story and I'm s-s-s-TICK'in toit! LOL
     

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