Necropsie "Graphic Photos"

[Momma_Bear]

Hello everyone, I am very stumped and need some help. In 3 days I've lost 4-5 birds. I have treated for worms, coccidia, Lice and mites, treating bumble foot, ECT.
Symptoms
Skin Over Bones (Not all birds)
Fluffing up
Weakness
Bloody Poop
Green Watery Poop
Eating and Drinking Normally
Rooster Had Rock Hard Large Crop
Feather Loss
Rooster Had Twitching
Much more!
I've gotten mixed answers and need help getting to the source.
Thank you all for your time!

 

[rebrascora]

Hi
I'm so sorry that you have lost so many birds like that. It must have been very upsetting. I commend you for opening them up to see if you can figure out a cause...

Some background history to go with the photos would be good.... like....
How old the birds are and how long you have had them?
Were they vaccinated for Marek's?
Have you added any new birds to the flock in the past couple of months?
Have you moved the flock recently?
What did you treat for coccidiosis with and what dosage. Those intestines look pretty distended and the ceca are quite dark and also a little distended in my opinion and the blood in poop, lethargy etc would all point towards coccidiosis, especially as regards the speed of death. It is however unusual for adult birds to suffer coccidiosis unless their immune system is compromised or they have been moved to a new location or new birds added which have exposed them to new strains of coccidia, which they have not previously encountered and have no resistance to.
Did you have any testing on a faecal sample done for coccidia. It may have been a strain that is resistant to the medication you were using. In the USA, state agricultural or veterinary diagnostics labs will do a faecal float for coccidia and worm eggs pretty cheaply and samples can be sent in the mail. Local vets can also check a faecal sample for these things, even if they don't treat chickens but are usually a bit more expensive.
Marek's disease can cause secondary infection like coccidiosis due to it's immunosuppressive action. I would be interested to know if there was a tumour in the rooster's crop. Did you cut it open? Marek's causes muscle wastage despite eating well.
Are all these photos of the rooster? I see his foot is bandaged. Did he have a bumblefoot and if so did you do surgery and if so, when? Was he lame? I'm guessing the 5th photo is of his sciatic nerve..... it is difficult to assess where in the body that is without reference from a picture of the whole bird.... hence the guess, but I'm really impressed at how well you dissected and exposed it. Without seeing the other one to compare it would be difficult to say if there was any swelling to indicate Marek's but not all Marek's birds will show sciatic inflammation anyway.

My gut feeling would be that it is Marek's, as much as anything, due to the broad range of symptoms but that coccidiosis has probably been a secondary infection which has brought about death. The bird is clearly incredibly emaciated and that suggests there has been something going on for much longer than a few days before death.... it takes weeks to lose that much muscle tissue. If that is a tumour in his crop or perhaps further down in the proventriculus which is a common place for Marek's tumours, that would explain the eating but being emaciated and perhaps a full crop as food eventually became unable to pass.

If you still have the carcass and are able to take more photos, some of his crop, proventriculus and gizzard all cut open with and without contents would be good and also photos of his liver and heart. It is also worth palpitating the length of the intestines for round worms and opening up any suspect areas to check. Roundworms can usually be felt through the intestinal wall.

 

[jonezjollyfarm]

Did you check the intestine for foreign objects that may have tore the inside of the intestine causing blood in the stool and not allowing waste to completely pass? I had a cockerel eat a fishing lure once. Where he got it idk.

 

[Momma_Bear]

Rebrascora- Thank you, it is hard and I lost my only rooster. He was a Russian Orloff.. The rooster was 1 year old, ages range from 4 months to 6 years old. I have had all of them since babies, none were vaccinated that I am aware of. I added the 4 month olds when they were days old to 2 weeks of age. I had treated them with Corrid at a hard core treatment. I did it at 7tbs for the 3.5 gallon of water for 5 days. I am treated again with 2tbs in the 3.5 gallon and will be doing it for 2 weeks. We did fix up the coop and replaced the dirt with new dirt. I have not gotten them tested for Coccidiosis, but they seem to have all the symptoms. How could I go about getting the cheaper sample done? I did NOT cut open the organs as I know cutting rabbit organs are a no no. With it being my first time necropsing birds, I didn't know if it was safe or not. They are pictures of the rooster, he was dealing with bumble foot, but did not need surgery. It was early in and no pus started. He was just about healed, but not 100% yet. He wasn't lame, but he did have balance issues that worsened as he aged. Picture 5 was right in the middle of the bird, but at his spine (if that helps any.) What are symptoms I can look for in the live birds for Mereks? I sadly do not still have him or I would check.

JonezJollyFarm- I did not cut his organs. I'm used to rabbits and I know cutting organs with them is a no no, s o it being my first time with the chickens, I wasn't sure if it was safe or not.

 

[rebrascora]

No problem cutting open chicken organs. I'm not sure what the problem is with cutting rabbit organs. The only reason I can think of is to prevent tainting the meat, when you are butchering for human consumption or because they stink.

Where are you located? Since you are losing multiple birds it would make sense to send a carcass off for a professional necropsy to your state diagnostics lab. Some are pretty cheap and at least one that I have heard of is free, others are more expensive or insist that you submit through a vet which makes it more expensive. That way you will find out if it is coccidiosis or Marek's or both. Marek's testing is performed in tumorous tissue and requires a special instrument to identify it There is a list of state lab facilities somewhere on the forum but a google search will easily locate your local one.
Have you tried dosing the sick birds with the concentrated Corid liquid rather than just treating their water and trying to make sure they drink enough?

 

[microchick]

If that is the crop in the last picture, whow is all I can say, that really is distended.

I lost (euthanized) a speckled Sussex hen recently with a huge hard crop. She was skin and bones. I do have Marek's in my flock also so I suspect that there was a tumor involved also as she always had crop problems.

I was thinking that the bowel not only looked distended but very dark, a section even black so I was wondering about necrotic bowel possibility.

So sorry you are going though this. Sorrier yet for your birds. You feel so danged helpless with Marek's.

 

[Momma_Bear]

No problem cutting open chicken organs. I'm not sure what the problem is with cutting rabbit organs. The only reason I can think of is to prevent tainting the meat, when you are butchering for human consumption or because they stink.

Where are you located? Since you are losing multiple birds it would make sense to send a carcass off for a professional necropsy to your state diagnostics lab. Some are pretty cheap and at least one that I have heard of is free, others are more expensive or insist that you submit through a vet which makes it more expensive. That way you will find out if it is coccidiosis or Marek's or both. Marek's testing is performed in tumorous tissue and requires a special instrument to identify it There is a list of state lab facilities somewhere on the forum but a google search will easily locate your local one.
Have you tried dosing the sick birds with the concentrated Corid liquid rather than just treating their water and trying to make sure they drink enough?

I think it's that and because it spreads the illness. I am in Austin, Texas and I have not as they seem to be eating and drinking fine.

If that is the crop in the last picture, whow is all I can say, that really is distended.

I lost (euthanized) a speckled Sussex hen recently with a huge hard crop. She was skin and bones. I do have Marek's in my flock also so I suspect that there was a tumor involved also as she always had crop problems.

I was thinking that the bowel not only looked distended but very dark, a section even black so I was wondering about necrotic bowel possibility.

So sorry you are going though this. Sorrier yet for your birds. You feel so danged helpless with Marek's.

Yeah, I'm hoping it's not the case. There's no treatment for it right? You'll have to start all over? Yes, that is his crop.

 

[rebrascora]

This is a link to your state facilities...
https://tvmdl.tamu.edu/about-tvmdl/contact-us/

As regards Marek's, yes there is no treatment but I have been managing it in my flock for 4 years. I do not sell any birds but I do breed and broody raise new chicks from my survivors and this year I have bought hatching eggs from a local breeder for my broody to raise as a new experiment. The oldest chicks from this year are just approaching adolescence which is prime time for an outbreak so this is always a point at which I watch them rather more closely for any sign of the disease. I may lose a bird or two to it each year but some recover from outbreaks too and it has settled down dramatically from the first year when it surfaced. Yes, each loss is heart breaking but you also get to rejoice at the ones that make a recovery. One of my broody hens that I allowed to raise chicks this year had an outbreak of Marek's last winter but pulled through after a couple of months or floundering about struggling to keep her balance.... mine mostly exhibit with neurological symptoms like lameness/leg paralysis or a dropped wing or wry neck/tail.
Being broody reared means the chicks have a stronger immune system and much less stress which I believe gives them a better chance of living with the disease or developing resistance.
Most of the stuff that you read about Marek's is pretty scary and that may be because only the most serious outbreaks get documented. Many people have Marek's in their flock and don't even realise it. It is extremely common and widespread and some strains are milder than others. I'm not sure if that helps you at all but I was pretty panic stricken when I first got the diagnosis, but the reality has not been half as bad as most of what I read.

 

[microchick]

No, there is no treatment and no, starting over isn't mandatory. You will loose birds to the initial infection. Die offs will slow or stop and you will find yourself loosing an occasional bird to tumors (as in my case). I have lost 2/3rds of my original Buff O and Welsummer flock. Started with over 30 birds and have 13 left at this time. 11 hens and 2 roosters. One hen is declining. She is 4+ years old and I suspect reproductive tumors. She is thin and when I palpate her abdomen just past her legs she feels slightly distended and firm. The little dear keeps hanging on doing her chicken thing, eating, drinking, taking dust baths, begging for treats....just a sweet little Buff O hen getting up there in age. And living on borrowed time. I don't euthanize until they show signs of discomfort or imminent death. I won't let them starve to death or suffer. They are allowed to enjoy what ever time they have on this earth being pampered and loved.

IF and that is a big IF you have Marek's you will want to breed your survivors for resistance. That means you need to get breeding stock to live to be at least 3 years old and breed from that group to repopulate your stock. Once you have Marek's it is in your soil as it is spread in your bird's dander, feces, etc. It's the nasty gift that keeps on giving for at least 7 years. Possibly longer. Our property had been chickenless for 8 years before I bought my unvaccinated flock of chicks. I started loosing birds at the age of one year and lost birds at the rate of one a week at times until last July when the regular die off stopped. This summer I lost 5 birds all bearing signs of Marek's disease in July.

Like I said. It's a nasty, nasty disease.

 

[Momma_Bear]

Thank y'all!!! I have 2 more having a hard time, so I'll check their organs when they pass.