Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by EdenCamp, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. EdenCamp

    EdenCamp Chillin' With My Peeps

    Please note: BYC does not advocate the use of off-label medicines on poultry.

    As a disclaimer, I am not a veterinarian or medical practitioner of any sort. My conclusions, opinions and suggestions for advocated treatments as well as any others offered here should be weighed, researched and your own conclusions formed. No responsibility, real or implied, is accepted for outcome. Veterinarians are encouraged to participate but please identify yourself if you offer a medical opinion rather than a personal practice.

    Here's the thing, in an effort to curtail overuse of antibiotics in our food supply the FDA is converting all soluble food and water antibiotic additives also used by humans that are currently OTC, to script. While the initial phase is "voluntary" starting in December of this year (mandatory 2017), manufacturers are eager to comply with the FDA and shortages are occurring as distribution is being curtailed with new packaging with RX requirements being worked up.
    First, there are preferred treatments and studies in Europe where there has been deemed sufficient economic incentives to seek approved usage to include poultry - with most animal meds available OTC, that has not been the case in the USA and approval of many medications for poultry, etc has just not been worth the effort. Second, Avian vets are scarcer than hen's teeth, literally. There is a resource to locate them http://www.aav.org/ . Third, US vets cannot script off label. Fourth, US vets will need to get up to speed with expanded medication authorized for use. Fifth, it's important for us to know which medications we need to stock up on or can substitute until approved usage catches up with actual usage. Sixth, by identifying what people are currently using off label for poultry it will provide incentive to manufacturers to seek approved usage so that vets can prescribe better treatments that we KNOW are effective. I have a contact that has business with most vet med manufacturers at the CEO/President level - I'm working to compile as comprehensive a list of products along with some indication of market size to provide incentive to get those meds we need approved for use.

    If you think this doesn't affect you consider this, most wormers other than Piperazine (which only treats roundworms), Corid and medicated chick feed commonly used to control coccidia are going to be affected and much, much more. If it's an antibiotic that dissolves in water or is added to feed - chances are pretty good it will need Rx. Injectables will continue to be OTC for the time being anyway. Here is the USDA site for the comprehensive list of drugs affected: http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...ce/JudiciousUseofAntimicrobials/ucm390429.htm
    Below is a table of most commonly used medications for poultry that I am aware of. While off label use can't be advocated, we know that in practice - we do. It would be helpful for people to contribute what products for what they do or would use if and when labeled for Chicken/Turkey/Waterfowl/Goats/Sheep etc, so we can get manufacturers on the ball to get them approved. If you would prefer to remain anonymous please feel free to PM .

    SAFE-GUARD GOAT Fenbendazole MERCK CH,TR,WF GO BROAD SPECTRUM WORMER O All but Tapeworms, safe
    WAZINE Piperzine FLEMING CH,TR,SW WORMER - ROUNDWORM O Only real value is 1st wormings - not for layers
    EPRINEX INJ Eprinomectin MERIAL CH,TR,WF CA PARASITE - WORMER T Round/lung worms, lice, mites, flies
    IVOMEC INJ Ivomectin MERIAL CH,TR,WF,DO CA,SW PARASITE - WORMER T/O Round/lung worms, lice, mites, flies, Heartworm(DO-O) Dev Resistance
    CORID Amprolium MERIAL CH,TR CA COCCIDIOSTAT - SOLUABLE O Common chicks, occ jv & adults with exposure to new of 9 strains
    AMPROL 128 Amprolium BIMEDA CH,TR CA COCCIDIOSTAT - SOLUABLE O Common chicks, occ jv & adults with exposure to new of 9 strains
    AMPROMED -P Amprolium BIMEDA CH,TR COCCIDIOSTAT - SOLUABLE O Common chicks, occ jv & adults with exposure to new of 9 strains
    TYLAN-50 Tylosin ELANCO CH,TR,WF CA,SW ANTIBIOTIC I/O Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG
    TYLAN-200 Tylosin ELANCO CH,TR,WF CA,SW ANTIBIOTIC I Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG
    LA-200 Oxytetracycline ZOETIS CH,TR,WF CA,SW ANTIBIOTIC I Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG - Stings bad, 2 shots day 1 & 4 only
    BIOMYCIN Oxytetracycline BI-Vetmedica CH,TR,WF CA,SW ANTIBIOTIC I/S Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG - no sting, 2 shots day 1 & 4 only
    FISHMOX - capsules Amoxycillian THOMAS LAB CH,TR,WF AQ ANTIBIOTIC O Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG
    PENAQUASOL Penicilian BIMEDA CH,WF TR ANTIBIOTIC O Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG
    BAYTRIL Enrofloxican BAYER CH,TR,WF CA,SW ANTIBIOTIC I Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG
    DENAGARD-10 Tiamulin NORVARTIS CH,TR,WF SW ANTIBIOTIC O Bacterial infections, CRD, MS/MG
    SULMET Sulfamethazine BI-Vetmedica CH,TU,CA+ ANTIBIOTIC O Cocci, Fowl Cholera, Corza, Pullorum - only chicks/polts
    SULFADIMETHOXINE Sulfadimethoxine BAYER CH,TU,CA+ ANTIBIOTIC O Cocci, Fowl Cholera, Corza - not for use over 16 wks CH or 24 wks TU age
    TERRAMYCIN -OPTM Oxytetracycline ZOETIS CH,TR,WF CA,SW,DO ANTIBIOTIC - EYE T Bacterial eye infections


    Avian Vet Association - Vet finder, conferences, etc. http://www.aav.org/

    USDA United States Department of Agriculturehttps://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/portal/aphis/home/
    Backyard Bio Security Webinar
    Here is a list of labs:

    List of state vets:

    Fore those in CA, I would suggest calling the CAHFS lab in Tulare, that's the one my avian vet suggests.
    Extensive Vet Manual - "Avian Medicine: Principles and Application"
    Avian Medicine - This one has an incredible formulary!

    Avian Examiner

    For the morbidly curious, here are the months reports from CAHFS.
    ThePoultrySite Quick Disease Guide
    Medicine Chart for Chickens & other Poultry
    Canadian Poultry Consultants, LTD

    Another thing all those reports have in common is gentamicin, so I looked for some available OTC, which I found for pigs at Valley Vet... Then I looked it up here:

    That is one that I would not try using without the help of a vet.

    Enrofloxacin (Baytril)
    Banned for use in poultry, but many people still use it.
    Here's one for oxytetracyline:
    Oxytetracyline and tylosin

    Antibiotics Approved for Use in Poultry

    Federal Feed Directive
    FDA's Strategy on Antimicrobial Resistance - Questions and Answershttp://www.fda.gov/…/Guid…/GuidanceforIndustry/ucm216939.htm
    Understanding the Feed Directive
    Food Animal Residue Avoidance Databank
    List of medications impacted.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015
    Sonya9 likes this.
  2. Folly's place

    Folly's place True BYC Addict

    Sep 13, 2011
    southern Michigan
    You forgot the FARADorg site. It's very up to date on livestock medications. And you do seem to be advocating the use of drugs off label, and that are prohibited for use. Mary
  3. EdenCamp

    EdenCamp Chillin' With My Peeps

    Farad is on the list of links bottoms of the page, second to last link. Here's the reality. Since so many vet meds were available OTC without script, US manf had no real incentive to seek approval for poultry use in the US. In Europe, not the case and many preferred treatments are considered "Off Label" use in the US because of it. With the FDA changes coming, US vet med companies need to be made aware of how their products are being used to attend to it. With so few Avian vets available, and cost prohibitive for fanciers and small flock keepers - we have become self reliant treating them ourselves. It is, and has been perfectly legal to treat our livestock as we see fit. Relating personal use of OTC medications for treatment is one thing - just look at this forum's very existence. Those that are licensed cannot advocate OL use. Bottom line, our birds require medications and treatment for a host of reasons and the action by the FDA is a big change affecting our ability to do so. Alternative options need to be addressed. One of which is getting manufacturers on the ball seeking approved use for poultry on products actually being used in the real world. Another is identifying safe substitutes still available OTC. A third is expanded use of holistics. Not so great is simply allowing nature to take it's course without any treatment and even worse is experimenting blindly by people trying new things without a clue.

    My nearest avian vet is 100 miles away. There are 8 listed in my entire state. I may have over 200 breeding birds - far more chicks and grow outs every year. All poultry need periodic worming and cocci is pretty much a given. I will not be dragging my entire flock that distance, nor will a vet make farm calls that distance. Most vets don't want to be bothered with poultry. So that leaves us where exactly?
  4. shortgrass

    shortgrass Overrun With Chickens

    Mar 14, 2015
    Northern Colorado
    I personally ally applaud the FDA for this. Too many uneducated people just tossing antibiotics and wormers out there with NO idea what they actually are or the effect its having overall.

    I disagree that all poultry need wormers and antibiotics. Mine get ZERO of either, and have never had need for it. Immunizations, yes. Antibiotics, no. Wormers. Absolutely not.

    We are not vets, and these meds should only be used when actually needed, so I think it's excellent to make them scrip worthy. Too many times I've read about someone going through 6 antibiotics and the bird is still sick, but they don't understand that they just literally killed the birds immune system.

    My sister is antibiotic resistant, from years of taking antibiotics; she usually just picks up a big bottle of oxytetracycline for her personal use... Lol nice; now she actually has to go see a doctor, like she SHOULD! :p
    ironpotter likes this.
  5. Sonya9

    Sonya9 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 7, 2014
    Jones County, Georgia
    If you have a regular vet for some of your animals usually they will help out with scripts. My dog's vet does not officially see chickens (he as his own flock but he does not know enough about avian diseases to feel comfortable diagnosing/treating other people's birds), but he will write a script for the chickens if I ask. Legally if they "see" one of your birds once a year then they can write scripts for that patient (and if you use the meds to treat all of your birds that is your business). Or they can write a script for the cat/dog that is on their patient list (that is less legal but it isn't like the are prescribing Schedule 1 narcotics in high doses, so it is commonly done).

    If your current vet will not work with you then find another one.

    I have mixed feelings on this, I like the ability to buy OTC antibiotics but at the same time I have seen people on other forums tell others that all chicks should be put on antibiotics "for a couple of days" after hatch. There are some really really ignorant people out there and a whole heck of a lot of them own/treat chickens!
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  6. Time to stock up, guys and stick em in your freezer if possible.

    There are two trains of thought here. 1) the overuse of antibiotics in meat sources and 2) the availability of avian vets. There is no denying that antibiotics are overused in meat producing animals. I remember a study where a lab pulled 5 different meat samples from 5 different sources and tested them for antibiotics. Everyone of them had therapeutic levels of antibiotics in them. Not acceptable IMHO. Then you have the availability of qualified avian vets. I've talked to our vet. He handles large farm animals from goats and sheep to cattle but no birds and admits that he doesn't know diddle about chickens but his brother does. I do not doubt for a minute that if I went in and told him that I had a sick bird and gave him symptoms along with evaluation that he would prescribe for them and give it his best shot.

    Plus you can also thank people who run to the doctor with every sniffle demanding antibiotics for a viral infections which are completely ineffective and doctors who are silly enough to write them one just to get them out of their exam rooms for this problem. Patients need to toughen up and listen to their bodies, stay home from work/school/whatever, stay in bed, drink plenty of fluids and let their bodies fight off the common cold and doctors need to grow a pair and tell them to do just that.

    Same with animals and in this case, chickens. There are instances where antibiotics are life saving and there are times like mentioned where antibiotics are abused and used when not needed.

    I am not an advocate of big government, just the opposite, but you can't blame the FDA for taking the cookie jar out of the child's reach when they have already eaten half the cookies. Like always, the law abiding individuals suffer.

    Oh well, there is always Canadian and Mexican pharmacies.............
  7. Sonya9

    Sonya9 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 7, 2014
    Jones County, Georgia
    So if all antibiotics become script only who is going to be selling this stuff? Lots of vets don't see chickens, are they going to start keeping an inventory of livestock meds even if they typically don't do livestock? Or will we have to buy online?

    I expect there will also be large runs on fish antibiotics. I also visit prepper forums and many of those folks stock up on fish antibiotics in case the zombie apocalypse arrives and they can't access doctors/pharmacies.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  8. EdenCamp

    EdenCamp Chillin' With My Peeps

    Great to see people coming forward to discuss this! Thank you one and all!

    As far as stockpiling and freezing. Be aware there are storage instructions and shelf life limitations that need to be observed.
    There are also issues with the mentioned seeking medications from CN and MX.

    I'm not here to argue with people about their choices to medicate or not, nor choices in products when they do. What I am trying to do is fasttrack getting the poultry medications used by people in the fancy and small farmers that have self treated and rely on products OTC availability to do so, in front of the heads of the manufacturing corporations. From there, testing for appropriate usage and dosing will be addressed in the approval process for acceptance.. We SHOULD end up with better care for our birds out of this. Poultry has largely been ignored in the US by vets and manufacturers as not of sufficient economic interest to bother with. They really have NO idea how many people do have poultry or what medications are being used for them because treatment has been almost exclusively private and OTC in the small flock sector. .

    I also understand the FDA's point with this. Here we are making noise about the safety of our food. All those hormones and additives leading to 5 year old menstruating girls etc. But, if Govt were really so concerned why no labels for country of origin (where USDA and FDA regs are not employed), where poultry, etc. are shipped to other countries for processing and then shipped back and GMO foods require no identification? Big AG will have no problem with this either, those companies have a staff of vets employed or at least on retainer and they will carry on pretty much as usual. So I could digress into conspiracy efforts to control food supplies and the public's ability to feed or even medicate themselves - but again, not the point of this forum.

    The point is that poultry has pretty much been an orphan, sheep and goats for that matter as well, and we have for the most part been left to our own devices to treat and manage our flocks with an array of OTC products that many will in a very short time require prescriptions to have access to. Most of us know by the time a bird cannot hide it's illness or distress there is a very short window to treat and save the bird. Fast access and treatment is critical. If you don't have what is needed on hand or a quick trip to the farm store - by the time you get to a vet and get a script - it's more often than not going to be 6 toes up. So, what I am trying to accomplish here, beyond alerting poultry people this is coming, is this:

    1. Get products important to poultry management and treatment fasttracked for authorized usage on poultry.
    2. Make efforts to reach out to vets to educate them on poultry treatments and the new need levels arising due to this initiative.
    3. Identify safe alternative treatments from the standard go-to's that are not impacted by the new Rx initiative so that people are not finding themselves blocked from access and exploring off the wall options in desperation, to the detriment of their flocks.
  9. Sonya9

    Sonya9 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 7, 2014
    Jones County, Georgia
    There isn't any discussion about banning off label use in veterinary medicine is there? I sure hope not, that would be a huge crisis.

    Also from what I have read, there are only a limited number of "approved for poultry" OTC antibiotics due to the worries about resistance and their eventual ineffectiveness treating human illnesses. Personally if I have a couple of extra antibiotic capsules left over from one of my dogs or myself I will likely save them for individual chicken emergencies in the event I can't get a hold of a script fast enough. One pill won't treat a flock but it would go a long way for a single bird.

    Also from what I understand once the expiration date has been reached antibiotics may be past their "peak performance" but the vast majority don't just stop working (unless it is a liquid suspension or some such thing). The antibiotics slowly lose effectiveness over time so if it expired 1 year before it may still be 90%+ effective, plus I would bet the expiration dates are very very conservative estimates. 30 years ago there were a couple that actually became toxic when they got old but I read those were taken off the market so it no longer applies.

    Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional I just look up a lot of this stuff and am sharing the info in case others want to research these matters on their own.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  10. Blooie

    Blooie Team Spina Bifida Premium Member

    Feb 25, 2014
    Northwestern Wyoming
    My Coop
    This topic is fascinating and I thank you, @EdenCamp for starting this discussion. I think one of the questions that needs to be asked is why vets are not being trained in avian medicine in vet school? I worked in 3 different veterinarians' offices over the years as an animal health technician and the dumbfounded look on any of the three vets' faces when someone would call in with a sick parrot or other bird was borderline silly. I remember one vet hanging up the phone, looking up at the sky and asking, "Why, WHY do people think they have to have birds? I don't know anything about birds!" This is the same man who would go out at 2 am in a snowstorm and deliver a colt or spend an afternoon pregnancy testing cows. It makes as much sense as a human physician being trained to treat only people of a certain ethnicity - just plain stupid. So we are left to our own devices and we don't even know what we are treating half the time because there are no vets out there qualified to tell us what we are fighting.

    I am personally dead set against using a bunch of medications on my birds. After all, part of the reason I have them is so that I know what's going into my families' mouths from the get-go. But I have had issues with mites, which had to be treated, and I had to resort to chemicals to get the job done. I didn't like it, but for the comfort and health of my birds and family it had to be done. I'm also smart enough to know my limits and I am not an avian diagnostician. The only poultry products you will find here are Save-A-Chic Probiotics, packets of electrolytes, a bottle of Poly-vi-sol without iron, a bottle of Vet Rx, and Castor Oil. If what's going on here is more serious than those things can handle, then I may need to rethink things, but so far I haven't had to resort to any kind of other treatments. Like @shortgrass I see all the time on here folks bombarding their birds with drug after drug and still not getting a handle on the sickness or healing the injury and it makes me sad that these people can't just pick up a phone and ask a vet to look at the bird.

    I guess the bottom line is that if you use these products, it might be a good idea to stock up before the shortages happen. For those like me, who don't rely on them, nothing really changes. For every study that someone can point to and say, "This proves it is true.", there's an opposing study someone else can find and say, "See, this proves you're wrong." I will be following this thread with great interest, and again I thank you for bringing it to our attention.
    3 people like this.

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