Paratyphoid in loft

Discussion in 'Pigeons and Doves' started by QuoVadis, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. QuoVadis

    QuoVadis Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Just wanted to see if anyone has successfully treated a Paratyphoid outbreak in a loft, and what you did to cure it. So here is the background:

    I got a late start on breeding this year, because is was building a new loft. Up until then I had not noticed many/any problems in my loft. But after I put a bunch of my fancy pigeons in the breeding loft and they started breeding, all kinds of problems started popping up: canker, loose poops, respiratory issues, and birds wasting away/going light. In addition I had issues with infertility, and babies dying in the nest, or shortly after weaning. Now as I list this all it sounds like clearly a Paratyphoid outbreak, along with secondary infections because of their weakened states, but at the time, I didn't realize all these were linked, so I just treated with a 3-way medicine for worms, canker, and cocci. I thought the babies dying happened from the parents not covering their babies at night, because they would often be cool too the touch not long before they died. I now think this was not the case but that they had paratyphoid, and in the babies it kills very fast. The 3-way did not really help, and around that time I posted on a different forum about my issues and I also had a bird start showing twisted neck, while another got wings boils, and another got a boil on a leg joint. After that I realized I was clearly dealing with paratyphoid, probably brought in by some birds who were carriers, but not showing symptoms until the stress of breeding season, and probably complicated by other issues like canker, etc.

    So anyway, after I realized that was probably what it was I began treating with Sulmet, because I had it on hand and Baytril is hard to get and very expensive the treat an entire flock with... it did seem to help some of my adult birds, but my babies were still dying, and as soon as I stopped treating after 2 weeks they seemed to relapse. I was also leery of using Baytril because I heard is could cause abnormalities in babies and I had some nestlings at the time. After I realized it was paratyphoid I didn't want them breeding anymore, but while I was on vacation I had some birds start sitting, and I didn't want to throw away egg that were half way to hatching. On the other thread I posted on a different site I got a severe tongue lashing for letting them keep the developing eggs, so maybe that was mistake, but they were less than a week from hatching by the time I was going to throw them out so I felt bad doing that. So anyway I currently have a few pairs with (oops!) young babies but I was still loosing a lot of young birds and even started loosing a couple adult birds, so I basically said "screw it" I just need to treat with Baytril. So I ordered a 10% solution and started treating a week ago, along with a Doxy/Tylan for the sneezing they have also been having.

    So my questions relate to dosage: based on various dosages I read online the first 4 days I treated with about 1 tsp (5 ml/ccs) per gallon since it is summer and they are drinking lots of water. After that I reduced the dosage to about 3ml/cc per gallon. I plan to give it for 3 weeks since supposedly this is the length required to cure birds of the carrier state. As of now I haven't noticed much difference in the birds, in fact some of the sicker ones have died in the last week.

    - So does this seem like a good dosage and length of time to treat?

    - Will the fact the some birds are still feeding young affect how much of the Baytril they absorb? Will the babies not get enough Baytril in the milk and then reinfect their parents or should they get enough through their parents to be treated? Will the parents get enough even while feeding? Should I use a higher concentration because of this?

    - And finally should I vaccinate after treating? How soon after treating? All my birds, just adults I plan to keep for breeding, or only the birds I fly?

    - After the birds have been through the full round of treatment and vaccinated is it safe to consider the Paratyphoid eradicated? (I have Virkon S to clean the coop with)

    - Also, I for sure at least have some birds who also have canker and I think also Cocci, can I treat with Ronidazole in the water at the same time as the Baytril or should I wait until after I am done treating with Baytril? What about Amprolium, is that safe to combine with Baytril? I just want to knock out everything that is ailing them!

    I would appreciate any insight anyone has, but please be kind. I am trying my best, and I have only had pigeons about a year and though I have kept almost every type of poultry you can think of, at least IME so far pigeons seem far more vulnerable to illness, and their illnesses seem far more difficult to identify than other birds I have kept. On another site some people have been very rude blaming me for this, when I feel like I have been trying everything I can to help my poor pijjies!

    (BTW I have another loft of birds that fly who were not breeding, who are not really showing symptoms, but I am treating that loft as well since they have been exposed to the pigeons from the other loft.)
     
  2. loftkeeper

    loftkeeper Chillin' With My Peeps

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    to start any thing stress full that can be stopped like raiseing young do it. separate sick birds so they don't have to compete for food water or space. all your birds more than likely are exposed. I myself would contact Foy:s or Siegels pigeon supplies and ask them for help they will answer your questions then if you have feed left out spilled or in feeders clean up. Rats and mice are the carriers and are comeing to eat the feed Feed what birds will clean up in about thirty minutes no left overs. And if you buy new birds keep separate for 30 days birds that recover will have natural imunity
     
  3. laughingdog

    laughingdog Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I now only treat with probiotics, vitamin/mineral drops, and apple cider vinager in water. Meds just weakend my birds and they stayed sick longer and got sick again soon worse. Probiotics seem to naturally safeguard eggs n young too. Keep clean dry loft. free of other birds, rodents n bugs. Change water daily at least.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  4. jak2002003

    jak2002003 Overrun With Chickens

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    I do the same as you.

    After many years of keeping pigeons I found treating them made them weaker in the long run... typically concerning virus and bacterial infection.

    Support them with clean stress free peaceful environment, probiotics and nutritious feed, clean water and natural sunlight.

    I found the same for my chickens.

    I lost many birds.. but the ones that survived passed their immunity and strength on to their young.

    I found sometimes that treating the sick birds prolonged their sickness, and eventually they died. Even the recovered ones got sick again with the same disease a few months later.
     
  5. appps

    appps Overrun With Chickens

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    No advice for the OP but sounds like you are doing your best to help them. Sorry to hear you had people being rude.

    This was interesting, as a newbie myself I hadn't realized mice posed such a threat. Lots more traps going out and food coming in at night from now on.
     
  6. jak2002003

    jak2002003 Overrun With Chickens

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    How are you birds doing now?

    I don't think any of this is your fault in the slightest! Even the best cared for birds can get sick from diseases.. that's just nature.

    What other site were the people rude to you? I stopped using Pigeon Talk, and there were so many crazy people on there that kept getting really nasty with me if they had a different opinion to me... and some really weird people who even tried to get me banned off the site when I told someone to replace eggs with dummy ones as there wre having overpopulation problems.... they made out I was abusing animals and being cruel to eggs!!!
     
  7. laughingdog

    laughingdog Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Half inch hardware cloth with mosquito netting or screen over on outside of, only way to keep mice, tiny birds, and insects out of lofts etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  8. QuoVadis

    QuoVadis Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Well, I finished the full round of Baytril, and I have been building them up with really good food, probiotics, and vitamins and minerals for the last couple weeks. I am hoping my birds are now Paratyphoid free, but I don't really now how to know that for sure. To me they look good, much better than they have in quite awhile, although I still have a few that seem too skinny. The birds with wing boils dried up, and though I still lost a few babies during treatment with Baytril, it seemed far less hard on the babies than the Sulmet was, and far more effective too. Some birds who were babies when I was treating with Sulmet were just getting feathers under their wings and around their beak at the same time as babies who were over a month younger got the same feathers. I definitely would not recommend Sulmet to young birds, it seemed to stunt them, but I had no issues with the Baytril.

    While I respect those of you who choose not to medicate, at times I think it is necessary, and my case I think was ones of those. If I had not treated I think I would just continue to have losses, if not of adults who have developed immunity, then of babies being newly exposed in the nest. Plus then I'd risk losing any new birds I may want to buy in the future who were not immune, and I don't think it would be honest to sell any birds either, knowing they were carriers.

    Now that I have treated I have been putting a mixture of ACV and lemon juice (for vit C) in their water, and loading them up with probiotics, and I will probably just continue doing that in the future to help ward off any salomonellensis bacteria that may or may not still be in their system getting established in anyone else's gut. (Salomonellensis needs an alkaline environment). As far as other suggestions I already do most of the common sense types things like not leaving food around etc. My loft is probably a bit too crowded, but the problem has been that I couldn't in good conscience sell any of my young birds after I realized what was going on in the loft, even though it would have been an easy way to save money on medication and free up loft space.

    So now I have treated for with Baytril for 3 weeks to kill Paratyphoid and/or E. Coli, at the same time I used a tetracycline and Tylan blend for the 5 days for the respiratory issues I was having, wormed them with Fendbendazole, treated with Corid for Cocci, and just finished up a round of canker treatment. Other than vaccinating I have mostly covered all the based of both the main issues and the other illnesses that took advantage of their weakened state.

    I am unsure whether I should vaccinate or not.. any thoughts? I do not want to deal with this again anytime soon! Does anyone on here vaccinate for Paratyphoid?
     
  9. laughingdog

    laughingdog Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Birds I got of one strain were vaccinated, n they are line hit worse then by paratyphoid. Salmonella coccidia and ecoli are naturally occurring in body, only bad when something else sets them on rampage. Without song birds nesting here this year.. my pigeons didn't get any ailments at all, and bacteria bugs heat humidity mold rodents horrible this year, so by process of common sense it's songbirds and all they brought to my pigeons before. Haven't given anything but fresh from tap water and layer crumbles.. Healthiest they've been since lived in this location. never had probs but feather lice before moved here
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016

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