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Pastel Rouen Purity? Updated with Pictures

Discussion in 'Ducks' started by Omniskies, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Omniskies

    Omniskies Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I have a pair of Rouen cross ducks that are breeding age. I've kept them back because they look exactly like Pastel Rouens and are absolutely divine. The cross is a Rouen x "something x Rouen" father that was covering Rouen hens. So they are 87%(ish) pure.

    I would like to incorporate them into my main Rouen flock, but would like to know how recessive the Pastel coloring actually is. Is Pastel a dilute, or does it become the Blue/Black/Splash gene? I'm really interested to get a flock of nice, heavy production (not Exhibition) Pastel Rouens going.

    Also, at what point would you consider these Pastel Rouens officially a pure? The ducklings would be roughly 94%(ish) Rouen (except for the two Pastels, which, I think, would only be considered 87% pure again). Would it be based on Rouen percentage, or based on when they breed true? Since I assume that the "something" from the father is going to end up popping out unusual colors here and there.

    I'd like to sell hatching eggs from these guys once I have done a test hatch or two. I just want to be careful that I am explaining things right to any buyers.

    Lastly, the drake is 100% Pastel-looking. The hen I'm not sure about. She has the Rouen pattern, but a light cream/tan body instead of the dark mahagony brown body typically found on hens. I found a reference to Light Rouens and can't find a picture for a Pastel Rouen hen - would the Pastel hen look like a Saxony? Is the Light Rouen just a lighter coloring? I'm fine with parting with the hen if she will muddy things up. I just thought the contrast was lovely.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
  2. gofasterstripe

    gofasterstripe Chillin' With My Peeps

    Photos would be good [​IMG] then everyone can see what you are on about.
     
  3. Omniskies

    Omniskies Chillin' With My Peeps

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  4. love_a_duck

    love_a_duck Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Instead he has a dark cobalt blue head.



    Sounds beautiful Omniskies,
    I cant wait to see some pics tomorrow.
    I couldnt tell much with those links,
    but my computer screen is not the best.

    Beth

    I am sorry I dont know anything about the purity question.​
     
  5. CityChicker

    CityChicker Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Your best bet is probably going to be to study the genetics involved and learn the basics of genetics. That will help a lot. It is almost required when you are trying to get a color variety going that is not common. Also, pictures would indeed help a lot, as there can be subtle differences that give clues as to what a bird's true color is.

    That said, the colors you are working with are actually quite straight forward and easy to understand. The normal Rouen color is the color of the wild Mallard and referred to as "Wild type" or "m+". Pastel is simply wild type plus double Blue dilution. Blue dilution is incompletely dominant, not recessive, so if a bird carries it, you will see it. The Blue dilution dilutes all areas of black to Blue in the heterozygous birds (sometimes referred to as "one dose"). In the homozygous birds (birds with two "doses", one from each parent), the color is diluted even further to a lighter Blue like a pigeon Blue or almost a Blue/Grey. So, for a bird to be "Pastel", it has to have inherited one Blue from each parent and have this Blue on the wild Mallard color/pattern. Pastels are wild type plus Bl/Bl. The heterozygous birds, or Bl/bl, are referred to as Blue Fawns. The Blue gene in the wild type series works the same as in the Extended Black series (often referred to here as BBS for Blue/Black/Splash). The only difference is that the Blue dilution is on the wild-type pattern rather than the solid Black of the extended Black (E/E).

    As far as the hen, again pictures would help. There are light phase Rouens, they are referred to as Rouen Clairs. There are not many of them in the US, but it is just a light phase wild-type (wild type plus li/li). It is the same color as the Trout Indian Runner. Unlike the Blue dilution, light phase is recessive. If you breed a light phase bird to a dark phase bird (wild-type is dark phase), you will get all dark phase offspring. If you breed these offspring together, you will get 75% dark phase and 25% light phase. I would really try to avoid using a light phase bird though if your goal is to breed Pastels, as Pastels and Saxonies can look pretty similar with the only difference being the addition of the light phase. The Saxony color is basically a light phase Pastel (wild type plus Bl/Bl and li/li). It is up to you though, of course. If you do work with both genes in the same flock, you will hatch out Rouens, Rouen Clairs, Blue Fawn Rouens, Pastel Rouens, Blue Trout Rouens, and Saxony Rouens. It might get confusing unless you really know what you are looking for.

    As far as the questions about purity, I personally don't think that is important to know at all. Terms like "pure" to me are pretty meaningless when talking about birds like domestic ducks. Just my opinion. All breeds and colors are a mix of something originally. As far as your percentages though, I am not sure where you got 87%. If you bred a pure Rouen to a 50% Rouen, the offspring would be 75% Rouen (actually now that I type that, I realize you probably are saying 87% because if you take the 75% Rouen cross then and breed back to a pure Rouen, the next generation would be 87.5% Rouen). Again though, quoting the percentages of "purity" is not something that even the top breeders do, so I would not be terribly worried about it. If your bird is really a Pastel, it can't possibly be a first generation cross anyway since it would need to get Blue from both parents to be Pastel. If you know for sure one parent was a Rouen, then the bird is not a Pastel, perhaps just something that looks Pastel. For that matter, you can't get light phase or "Rouen Clair" from a first generation cross either.
     
  6. Caprice_Acres

    Caprice_Acres Chillin' With My Peeps

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    So if the pastel is blue dilution, then you will get some ducklings out of these guys that are pastel, even when breeding to non-carriers. [​IMG]

    But I think you have their percentage off. What you do to figure percentage, is add the percentages of each together, then divide by two for the offsprings' percentage.

    For example, you said your cross was originally:

    Rouen (dam) X Rouen/something (sire).

    So, the cross is:

    100% X 100%/0% OR 100% x 50%

    100+50 = 150, divided by two is 75%.


    So I think your pastels are actually 75%?

    So, crossing them again to purebreds would get you 87.5%'ers, and crossing those offpsring to purebreds would get you 93.75 (94%ers) which at least with rabbits and boer goats, is considered purebred.
     
  7. CityChicker

    CityChicker Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Not exactly. Blue dilution is incompletely dominant, so if a bird carries it, it will always show in its' outward appearance (phenotype). You need two copies of the Blue dilution though to create Pastel, one from each parent. That would be impossible unless both parents carried Blue (again, which would be evident), so you could not get Pastel breeding to a non-carrier of Blue. The closest you could get to Pastel in the first generation cross (F1) to a normally colored bird (wild-type) would be Blue Fawn, which is one copy of the Blue dilution. Actually, a Pastel Rouen bred to a normal Rouen would produce 100% Blue Fawn offspring. The genotypes are as follows (I don't think anyone is breeding Blue Trout or Saxony in Rouens, but will also include those):

    Normal Rouen- Wild Type
    Blue Fawn Rouen- Wild Type plus one Blue dilution (Bl/bl)
    Pastel Rouen- Wild Type plus two Blue dilution (Bl/Bl)
    Rouen Clair- Wild Type plus Light phase (li/li)
    Blue Trout Rouen- Wild Type plus light phase and one Blue (Bl/bl, li/li)
    Saxony Rouen- Wild Type plus light phase and two Blue (Bl/Bl, li/li)

    Hopefully, this will show how the colors are built a little better. The rest of your post, Caprice Acres, pretty much agrees with what I posted and is correct.
     
  8. Caprice_Acres

    Caprice_Acres Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Not exactly. Blue dilution is incompletely dominant, so if a bird carries it, it will always show in its' outward appearance (phenotype). You need two copies of the Blue dilution though to create Pastel, one from each parent. That would be impossible unless both parents carried Blue (again, which would be evident), so you could not get Pastel breeding to a non-carrier of Blue. The closest you could get to Pastel in the first generation cross (F1) to a normally colored bird (wild-type) would be Blue Fawn, which is one copy of the Blue dilution. Actually, a Pastel Rouen bred to a normal Rouen would produce 100% Blue Fawn offspring. The genotypes are as follows (I don't think anyone is breeding Blue Trout or Saxony in Rouens, but will also include those):

    Normal Rouen- Wild Type
    Blue Fawn Rouen- Wild Type plus one Blue dilution (Bl/bl)
    Pastel Rouen- Wild Type plus two Blue dilution (Bl/Bl)
    Rouen Clair- Wild Type plus Light phase (li/li)
    Blue Trout Rouen- Wild Type plus light phase and one Blue (Bl/bl, li/li)
    Saxony Rouen- Wild Type plus light phase and two Blue (Bl/Bl, li/li)

    Hopefully, this will show how the colors are built a little better. The rest of your post, Caprice Acres, pretty much agrees with what I posted and is correct.

    Ahh, I was reading it as though the pastel was the result of just ONE dose of the dilution. So the pastel in this case works like splash in blue chicken breeds.
     
  9. KansasKid

    KansasKid Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 7, 2010
    South East Kansas
    And all these genetics are autosomal and not sex-linked right?

    now are you saying Bl=blue dilution and bl=wild type? and if you are is wild type recessive or dominant?

    if its dominant, what you said about it being incompletely dominant means that it follows the non-mendelian rule of incomplete dominance (ex. R=red White=W RW=Pink)

    so that you could technically say that Bl=blue dilution and Wt=wild type BlWT=blue fawn


    Does this sound right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  10. CityChicker

    CityChicker Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Yes, no, and not exactly. The brief explanation as I am heading out right now is...

    No, none of the genes mentioned are sex-linked. The only sex-linked genes for feather color in the Mallard derived breeds are Buff dilution and Brown dilution.

    We use m+ or m+/m+ basically as "shorthand" for m+/m+, Li+/Li+, C+/C+, e+/e+, bl+/bl+, D+/D+, Bu+/Bu+, r+/r+, s+/s+ which is Wild-type (Wild type, dark phase, colored/not solid white, not extended black, not blue, not sex-linked brown, not sex-linked buff, no runner/pied pattern, no bib). For obvious reasons, it is just easier to use "m+" or "wild-type".

    Technically, bl means "not blue" and Bl means "blue", obviously then "Bl/bl" means heterozygous Blue and "Bl/Bl" means homozygous Blue. Wild-type Mallard coloration is "not Blue", so would be bl/bl. Of course, the more correct way would be to use bl+/bl+ to denote for wild type at that locus, but I seldom see it written that way in informal conversations. The Blue dilution gene or "Bl" is incompletely dominant to the wild-type at that locus. One copy turns Black areas of the wild-type to Blue. Two copies of the Bl gene lighten those areas even further to more of a lighter Blue/Grey.

    I hope this explains better. Blue Fawn is simply wild-type with the addition of one Blue gene at that location. Usually it is written as "m+/m+, Bl/bl" again just because that is easier than writing out the longer form which would in this case be m+/m+, Li+/Li+, C+/C+, e+/e+, Bl/bl, D+/D+, Bu+/Bu+, r+/r+, s+/s+ (and perhaps others, LOL).
     

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