Pipped wrong end, but no full hole..

[kyeschicks]

I have eggs that are on day 21, temp and humidity have been constant throughout incubation, no issues. I have hatched multiple times before, but never had issues with wrong pip ends. A little bit ago I noticed two pipped on the sides. I verified by candling to see if they were near the air cell and they are not. The reason I'm worrying is because neither have an adequate hole through the white outer membrane, they just broke the shell. I held them close to my ear and both have wet sounds, no chirping. One seems to be breathing a little fast and the other slow. I don't know if they can breathe so I'm debating about peeling a little more shell off since the holes aren't big and then making a bigger hole in the membrane. which would relieve my worry. But before I do any of that...I wanted y'alls input. I will try to get a picture for you guys. I generally leave the wrong pips and let them hatch naturally because they have a big hole and can breathe, however...these do not. I have lost chicks that pipped on wrong ends due to no oxygen so this is why I'm worried in the first place.

 

[kyeschicks]

I don't think they are getting adequate oxygenation. I will leave them like that for about two hours and I know it could mean life or death between that time, but I really want to encourage them to do it on their own. This will only serve as a learning experience. If they die within those two hours then next time I will leave them for an hour without assistance then assist after an hour if no progress.

 

[orrpeople]

Chicks who make wrong end pips (malpositioned or "malpos") take quite a bit longer to zip. The reason for this is that the first internal pip through the air cell doesn't happen, so figure the time they take to go from internal to external, and then external to zip, all totaled in the one malpositioned pip.
Some of the difficulties that arise are blood vessel severing, and simply not getting the oxygen necessary to complete a hatch. Often malpos need some assistance because their position in the egg is not conducive to hatching successfully.
I believe there are some threads on this subject - they may fill in some of the blanks for you. I've had several malpos hatch; some without help, some with, and some with serious complications.
Hoping the best for your little chick!

 

[kyeschicks]

Thanks! I'm just mainly worrying about oxygenation right now. They can stay in there for a day if they need to, but the oxygen is crucial lol I hope I don't go in there too late to help..

 

[orrpeople]

If it can peep, it's probably getting enough O2...the catch 22 is making a pip bigger on a malpo can cause damage to the blood vessels, and sometimes the sudden drop in humidity can cause the membrane to stick to the chick or lose elasticity (I'm sure you know this, having done "normal" hatching before.) All that said, I'm kind of a "just peel a tiny bit of the shell aside" kind of person, just to check - especially if it's been a good while (more than 24-30 hours).

 

[Laodicia]

Thanks! I'm just mainly worrying about oxygenation right now. They can stay in there for a day if they need to, but the oxygen is crucial lol I hope I don't go in there too late to help..

those holes look fine just make sure you leave them facing up so any remaining liquid doesnt block the hole.

 

[kyeschicks]

Yes, they were originally at the bottom. I turned them up like shown in the pic. I did candle them and the white one did still have a lot of blood vessels so I have no clue why it's pipping..

 

[orrpeople]

Yes, they were originally at the bottom. I turned them up like shown in the pic. I did candle them and the white one did still have a lot of blood vessels so I have no clue why it's pipping..

It would normally pip through the air cell first, continue to absorb the blood vessels, then pip externally - and again, continue to absorb those vessels. But, because its first pip was out of the shell (it had to, there was no way for it to get oxygen in the position it's in otherwise) it's going to take longer for all the blood to be absorbed than a normal external pip would take.

 

[kyeschicks]

Update for future people who may need this reference:
After two hours of them pipping on the wrong end with a small hole and no progress, I decided to take the chances and make the hole bigger and slit the outer membrane so they could get adequate oxygenation. I made the hole the size of a regular pip, nothing too big. I did accidentally hit a small blood vessel on one of the eggs but the chick was in no danger as it didn't bleed for not even a two seconds and it wasnt a large vessel. My intentions were NOT to help hatch the chick, my intentions were to get adequate oxygenation in there as I've had some suffocate in the past.

Why did I chose to help? They pipped on the side and had a hole which I felt wasn't an appropriate size for them to get adequate oxygenation. They were not chirping at all and when held close to my ear I could hear wet sounds which are not good in my opinion. By "hole" I mean a hole through the shell AND the outer membrane, not just the shell. I gave them two hours after I found the pips to see if they made progress which they didn't and that's when I intervened. I moistened the egg shell and membrane with a warm paper towel and peeled away with a toothpick.

Results: The egg that I hit the vessel just hatched and is healthy and chirping now, actually got to see it zip. The second egg (white egg) hasn't hatched but has made the hole bigger so I am just going to let him hatch naturally. If by tomorrow afternoon he hasn't hatched, I will assist as it would be around 48 hours since he pipped by then. Normally you'd help after 24hrs, but he has oxygen which is the most important thing and he's a strong chick that I know will hatch before then.

 

[orrpeople]

Good work! We definitely live and learn!