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Pyncheons?

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Hilacraft, Apr 30, 2017.

  1. Hilacraft

    Hilacraft Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Does anyone have pyncheon eggs, chicks, or chickens? Does anyone know well about this breed? Does anyone know anyone else who has experience or owns this breed?
    Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
     
    Dovemaiden likes this.
  2. exoticpoultry

    exoticpoultry Out Of The Brooder

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    Hello I have no information on this breed but I was wondering if you knew of any pictures of them as I've not herd of them.
     
    Dovemaiden likes this.
  3. Hilacraft

    Hilacraft Chillin' With My Peeps

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    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]






    Real pure ones have willow green legs. They are a very rare breed of bantam, one of the rarest. They originated in the United States in the 1700s
     
    Dovemaiden likes this.
  4. Dovemaiden

    Dovemaiden Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I've been raising them for quite a while. It's hard to find them anymore.
    Most of the hatchery ones are not correct for the standard.

    The breed has been overly line-bred and some faults appeared that were never corrected. When they are hatched, they should be brown and grey, not yellow.

    The shanks of all the hatchery stock I've seen are pinkish white; they should start out yellow, then turn willow/olive green at sexual maturity.

    The white-shank gene that is prevalent in these hatchery birds is dominant and incorrect.

    The Mille Fleur pattern should show up as a nice red-bay color at feathering with as few spangles as possible since more spangles show up each year.

    The yellow hatchery chicks feather into an instant, total, very tight, light yellow background Mille Fleur pattern with lots of spangles.

    By the third year, or even the second, they have gone white from excessive spangling. The traditional red-bay Mille Fleur base color never appears.
    The hatcheries (Privett, Strombergs, Welps) send out mostly yellow-downed chicks.

    A few brownish colored ones were in the Strombergs as of three years ago.
    I got my original stock there, and they had all been brown-downed chicks.

    Other stock I've ordered since then have had a preponderance of the yellows. Other stock I've pursued have the same shank faults.

    The tassel should be well-pronounced as a knob seen on the head in both sexes of chicks when they hatch, but you'll find a lot of chicks from the hatchery have males without any tassel.
    To add to the problem, they'll have a floppy comb, the S-shaped type you see in Sulmtalers; this isn't right.
    I also, personally, like to see a horn color to the beak; a lot are just pure white.
    That is not that big a deal, but they should be that color at hatch.

    But the biggest problem I've encountered, especially with recent additions to the flock is viability after hatching.
    It appears to be an extremely limited gene pool.

    I've worked on correcting the faults for a few years now.

    The Mille Fleur pattern was a big problem, to get the right color I had to out-cross. It takes at least four gens to get this right.

    This "instant Mille Fleur" allele (that is on a yellow base color, not red) that is expressed on the first feathering with over-spangling has been hard to displace.

    The hatchery bird base has obviously selected for that gene over quite a few generations.

    As General Bosquet said at the Charge of the Light Brigade, " C'est magnifique---mais ce n'est pas la Mille Fleur. . . "
    Well, he didn't say " la Mille Fleur." But if he was a poultry fancier, he would have!

    To paraphrase, "Yes, it is magnificent (to have an complete spangled pattern the first year) but it is not Mille Fleur! "

    I've got it fixed with my birds; the original stock I had was/is correct (they are rather old now) but the "new" birds that are supposed to be purebred Pyncheons all carried this yellow-based allele.

    I had to work on the shanks as well.
    Yellow shanks at hatch is great;a lot will go green as they hit 60 days and beyond, then especially when they are at puberty.
    You'll even sometimes see hens legs go slightly blue-green when they are laying due to hormonal changes.
    If you are interested, I'll post some pictures of the incorrect vs. correct on Pyncheons.
    Did you raise any this year?
    Sincerely,
    Dovemaiden
     
    twigcrafter likes this.
  5. Dovemaiden

    Dovemaiden Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I'll try to upload a photo so you can see what I mean about base color. These are some of this years offspring. You want that upright tail, bay feather base, and the less spangling the first year, the better, just like D'uccle Mille Fleurs, D'Anver Mille Fleurs. That is extremely important, or you'll have an almost totally white bird by the third year. IMG_1234.JPG
     
  6. twigcrafter

    twigcrafter Chillin' With My Peeps

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    IMG_1218.JPG IMG_1217.JPG

    Are these Pyncheons? I thought they were polish bantams but the pictures don't match. I'm probably just wishing, but it doesn't hurt to ask :frow
     
    Dovemaiden likes this.
  7. Dovemaiden

    Dovemaiden Chillin' With My Peeps

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    These appear to me to be Polish Bantams (that is, the ones with the crests on their head) that are crossed with birds showing the Duckwing pattern (see the chipmunk colored ones? Those are usually Duckwing.)

    Duckwing pattern isn't just unique to Phoenix or Ohiki; you see it in many other breeds, Old English Game Bantams, for instance.

    Pyncheon are very small; the head tassel/crest is unique because it's really high and round compared to the Polish.

    Also, check the nostrils at the top of the beak.

    What's weird about Pyncheons are two characteristics: on your Polish, the nostrils are pronounced with a definite "stop" and are described as "cavernous".

    To me, Polish always look like a bat's nostrils: if you look at a bat, head on, they have that flat nose with the inner nostrils kind of convoluted a little.

    BUT---Pyncheons have a straight beak, and there are no raised nostrils.

    Secondly, Pyncheons have two odd little puffy, downy knobs right in front of their eyes and the beak ---like little rounded horns---the first couple of days.

    Lastly, the color.
    The color they should be is closest to the bird on the bottom right of your second photo, but that one is missing the grey back.

    The chicks should be brown on the head on sides, greyish all down the back.

    They should look exactly like a baby Mille Fleur D'Uccle (without the feathered feet or the beard/muffs around the face) or a baby D'Anvers (without the beard/muffs on face).

    That being said, there is no reason (other than the present standard of perfection on Pyncheons) that, in the future, breeders might experiment and produce new patterns on this distinguished old breed.

    Since the carry Mille Fleur pattern, it is not unusual at all that there are also Porcelains in the breed (someone on here has photos) since they are a dilute of Mille Fleur.

    Following that line of reasoning, you can achieve Goldneck ( another dilution, of the Red Pyle variety.

    I already have some of these colors, and Mottled as well---in the Pyncheon breed.)

    I think they are quite fetching, although not recognized as showable.

    This gives me a little extra genetic variability to work with, since, as I have previously mentioned, the genetics of the Pyncheon at this point are horribly bottle-necked.

    But the only recognized is the Mille Fleur pattern for show, as far as I know.

    I could be wrong, because I have been using my old 1975 Bantam Standard.).

    I just ordered the newest standard to check out what changes have been made, since I may be a bit behind the times in respect to accepted color.

    I saw some very nice Porcelains somewhere on this backyard chicken site, so Porcelain may be recognized as well.

    You've got some very pretty chicks there; and if you end up with some Polish Duckwings or other new colors, you could start a new trend!!

    Duckwing is a gorgeous pattern, and I have yet it see it on a Polish, bantam or large fowl. It would be nice if you would update photos as the mature.

    Best Regards,
    Dovemaiden
     
    twigcrafter likes this.
  8. twigcrafter

    twigcrafter Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Dovemaiden,
    Thank you so much for the extremely detailed reply. :bow
    You've taught me a lot. These are definitely polish. It was the "duckwing" pattern that was confusing me. Thanks again for taking the time, and showing patience to an inexperienced chicken lover :thumbsup
     
    Dovemaiden likes this.

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