question about horse wormers and chickens

Discussion in 'Managing Your Flock' started by RockyToggRanch, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. RockyToggRanch

    RockyToggRanch Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 22, 2008
    Upstate NY
    Once a year I rotate Zimecterin horse wormer into my deworming schedule. I recall my vet telling me not to let my dog eat manure afterwards because it would make him sick. (Why MANURE doesn't make him sick to begin with??? IDK)

    I didn't have chickens then. Now I do:)
    It's that time again for the Zimecterin and I'm afraid to give it because my chickens totally break up the manure piles in the barn stalls. My barn isn't finished and right now I can't keep them out of the stalls.

    Is there a danger to them eating manure after worming?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2009
  2. RockyToggRanch

    RockyToggRanch Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 22, 2008
    Upstate NY
    OOhhh horse people......where are you?
     
  3. halo

    halo Got The Blues

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    My Coop
    It shouldnt be a problem...I use Ivomec to worm the chickens, which is the same as Ivermectin. They arent eating the manure, they are going after the undigested grains, and if they are lucky enough and its an old pile that flies have laid eggs in, they get yummy maggots....mmm mmm good....
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  4. Nostalchic

    Nostalchic Chillin' With My Peeps

    Ivermectin is used in dogs (to treat heartworm) and chickens, AND humans, for certain parasitic infestations. Which should be reassuring, if not an absolute guarantee (there aren't any of those, in case you hadn't noticed...[​IMG] But the chickens aren't eating greedy mouthfulls of that delicious manure (as dogs do... or doo-doo), as noted above, only picking through for other things, and I don't think this would be of any concern. I'd worry more about what was in standard commercial laying mash...
     
  5. patandchickens

    patandchickens Flock Mistress

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    Oh aargh, I typed this all out before and the computer ate it [​IMG]

    I would not personally worry. (Unless you are trying to sell officially organic eggs or meat, in which case it *would* be an issue).

    First, chickens are not really eating the manure itself in any big quantity, they are mostly trying to pick out grains and any bugs that may have started to colonize the manure. Secondly, that's a tiny proportion of their total diet. And third, wormer residue doesn't remain in the manure for very long -- if you notice, it is really just the first day or day and a half that ivermectin messes with how poo breaks down naturally (because fly larvae etc don't do well in those concentrations of ivermectin in the manure, the road apples deposited shortly after worming will just sit there for an unreasonably long time instaed of being broken apart and spread out and disappearing [well, in summertime, not right now of course!] the way they 'should'.)

    If you are really worried, pick up the manure before you worm to get things clean, then pick up new deposits a few times a day for the next couple days and bury them inside the manure pile where the chickens can't get at them. I wouldn't bother, myself, though.

    AFAIK the issue with dogs is just that some breeds are oversensitive to ivermectin (collies, and I think a couple others?, plus if your dog has mixed blood then all bets are obviously off) and you're being urged to err on the side of caution.

    As an aside, what are you worming with the rest of the year? Usually late fall or early winter is when you would use ivermectin if you are using something of lesser breadth/potency the rest of the year, so that you can zap bot larvae right away instead of giving them the winter to wreak havoc in the gut. Likewise if you are using zimectrin gold (for tapes as well), usually you do it at the *beginning* of the winter. I suppose if you're using moxidectin the whole rest of the year then there is no one time that ivermectin is more appropriate, but if you're doing that, be aware that current recommendations are to rotate for a year at a time, not just for one worming. Just a thought, anyhow.

    Good luck, have fun, how is your horse's foot doing these days?,

    Pat
     
  6. RockyToggRanch

    RockyToggRanch Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 22, 2008
    Upstate NY
    It was my understanding that I was to rotate three different wormers throughout the year. My vet didn't say which one or when, he just listed the three and said the zimectrin gold was the one to watch the dogs with. I use different pelleted products throughout the year and this paste once a yr mostly because my older horse is so difficult to paste. I'll have to check with my vet and have him clear up my confusion...

    His foot is still bruised, but he's getting around okay. I have a barefoot trimmer coming on Saturday to trim and consult. Thank you for asking. I'm also in the process of switching them to a good first cut hay and away from the 2nd cut.
     
  7. patandchickens

    patandchickens Flock Mistress

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    Ah, ok, zimectrin gold is not just ivermectin, it has (I forget what) else in it for tapeworms - it didn't exist when last I worried about dog-and-wormery-poo conflicts, and it is entirely possible there is some extra issue there. So, you might want to pick up and bury (in the manure pile) the first 24 hrs of post-wormer manure, just to be on the safe side.

    You may want to do some reading about current recommendations for wormer rotation to prevent resistance developing. Last I heard, they were suggesting using one product for a whole year, then rotating to another (except that you might want to substitute in a early-winter tapeworm treatment if you're only using ivermectin or pyrantal pamoate, and/or an early-winter ivermectin treatment if you're only using pyrantal pamoate that year).

    Not that resistance has yet emerged to the ivermectin class of wormers (I don't know about pyrantal pamoate) but it would be DISASTROUS if it ever did, and is certainly *possible* to happen.

    I am glad his foot is feeling a little better, hope he is feeling even better soon [​IMG]

    Good luck, have fun,

    Pat
     
  8. Kimiko

    Kimiko Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Zimectrin Gold is Ivermectin and Praziquantel.

    Ivermectin is the big problem in herding breed dogs or dogs with an MDR-1 (Multidrug Resistance Gene) mutation. Enough drug passes through that a herding breed dog eating manure can get a toxic (and sometimes lethal) dose.

    [If interested, you can now test your dog through Washington State: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/test.aspx]

    The
    current recommendations for dewormer are to either do periodic fecal egg counts or deworm according to your horse's exposure and area's parasites.

    In 1998 the first reports of possible ivermectin resistance emerged in cyathostomes (small strongyles) with shortened egg reappearance periods after worming. Suspected moxidectin resistance was reported in 2005 in the UK (Trawford, A.F., Burden, F., Hodgkinson, J.E., 2005. Suspected moxidectin resistance in cyathostomes in two donkey herds at the Donkey Sanctuary, UK. In: Proceedings of the 20th International Conference of the World Association for the Advancement of Veterinary Sciences) and resistance to Ivermectin was reported in Australia in 2008. [Edward, C.L. and Hoffmann, A.A. (2008) Ivermectin resistance in a
    horse in Australia. Vet. Rec. 162, 56-57. ]

    Parascaris equorum has demonstrated resistance to Ivermectin in the US and Denmark. [Boersema, J.H., Eysker, M., Nas, J.W.M., 2002. Apparent resistance of Parascaris equorum to macrocyclic lactones. The Veterinary Record 150, 279-281.
    Craig, T.M., Diamond, P.L., Ferwerda, N.S., Thompson, J.A., 2007. Evidence of ivermectin resistance by Parascaris equorum on a Texas horse farm. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science 27, 67-71.
    Schougaard, H., Nielsen, M.K., 2007. Apparent ivermectin resistance of Parascaris equorum in Danish foals. The Veterinary Record 160, 439-440.]
     

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