Questions on Barnevelders,black breast, laced breast, Ml, Pg genes etc

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by nzchicke, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. nzchicke

    nzchicke Out Of The Brooder

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    We have two male (brown) barnevelder patterns in our standard. One is called double laced but the males only have single lacing, (I have heard some people have double laced ones but I'm not sure where their double lacing is) and they are supposibly the male version to the double laced females. The other colour is "partridge", these males have a solid black breast, the female equivalent is single laced female with odd peppering (no inner lacing/pencilling).
    So at first I supposed you breed each pattern to it's self as said above. But reacently I have seen (and now brought) groups with a 'partridge' male and 'double laced' females.
    My questions are: what is the genetic difference between these males? Will it have effect on the colour/patterening of the females???

    Also I have bred a barnevelder rooster to some hybrid layers, shavers, and out of the resulting offspring none have outer lacing. Some have a we bit on pencilling others have quite a bit. Is this what is expected? Why are none laced?

    Thanks any one for any help!![​IMG]
     
  2. blackdotte

    blackdotte Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Double Laced Barnevelders have the genotype eb/eb s+/s+ Pg/Pg Ml/Ml Mh/Mh
    The hens should be double laced, as should the cockerels.
    Partridge Barnevelders have the genotype e+/e+ s+/s+ Mh/Mh the males a black breasted red, and the hens a Partridge (as in Partridge OEG or Welsummer) but a darker red.
    I am not sure what Shavers look like but most commercial red layers are genetically eWh/eWh s+/-
    Co/Co ( & I/i+ if they have white tails)

    Double lacing is Pg/Pg Ml/M/
    Single lacing is Pg/Pg Co/Co Ml/Ml

    Your chicks will be eb/eWh s+/s+ (males, pullets s+/-) Pg/Pg Ml/ml+ Co/co+
    The heterozygous combination of Ml/ml+ Co/co+ results in incomplete (broken) lacing.
     
  3. nzchicke

    nzchicke Out Of The Brooder

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    Why is it that the 'dark' indian games have the solid black brested males?
    Is there something I am missing there? lol
     
  4. tls_ranch

    tls_ranch Stares at Chickens

    I'm just learning about color genetics as well. Pictures do help to figure out the effect of color genes. Here is a picture of a Barnevelder rooster that is double laced. He has the solid black breast, but is still considered double laced.
    [​IMG]

    Here is a picture of some double laced hens:
    [​IMG]



    Eumelanin enhancers extending black areas, "Ml" create Melanotic breasts to make the breasts solid and the wide bold black lacing
    Double lacing is Pg/Pg Ml/M/

    Columbian restrictors, restricting black areas, "Co" restricts lacing to single lacing like in this Blue laced red wyandotte (she's splash "dilute" so imagine that the blue is black for a single laced Barnevelder).Pg/Pg Co/Co
    [​IMG]

    Edited to add: If you breed a laced "patterned" breed to a solid color you might not get any lacing in the first generation. The second crossing might have some lacing and you will have to breed out the columbian gene to get back to double laced.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  5. blackdotte

    blackdotte Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Why is it that the 'dark' indian games have the solid black brested males?

    Because they have additional melanisers that the Barnevelder doesn't have.
    Charcoal is on that has been identified, 'hackle black' is another.
    David​
     
  6. nzchicke

    nzchicke Out Of The Brooder

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    Quote:Because they have additional melanisers that the Barnevelder doesn't have.
    Charcoal is on that has been identified, 'hackle black' is another.
    David

    Thanks for that! I thought I was missing something and that would be it..

    My rooster ('single laced') Has different coloured hackels etc than the one pictured, they are red/orange. My blue rooster, brought with a group of blue double laced hens, (I think that he has solid blue breast and not just over laced) has the same light colour hackle.
     
  7. Henk69

    Henk69 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Barnevelders in Holland (the origin, I even worked in Barneveld once) are black breasted like the pic above. The roosters are almost black like that one.
    For roosters to be "double laced" they must be selected for something that makes them more hennyfeathered.
     
  8. blackdotte

    blackdotte Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Light coloured neck hackle indicate a cross to another breed (Gold Laced Wyandotte ?), as it shows a lack of Melanotic or the presence of Co.
    David
     
  9. nzchicke

    nzchicke Out Of The Brooder

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    If Co was involved would it not show up in the hens? I have brought in/hatched two lines and so seen the directly related females. Wouldn't they have colour (other than black) in their hackles and lacing not so up into tails? (have I got this right [​IMG] )

    Our standard does state our double laced male has single lacing, breast/shoulders etc and coloured hackles etc
     
  10. poultch

    poultch Out Of The Brooder

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    shavers in NZ are white tailed, red wheatons. I think they are het columbians and this is why you are seeing a variance in the lacing of your F1's

    columbian in barny hens will show single lacing, if you are seeing a lot of orange in hackle of your Rooster, its not a good sign probably lacking "hackle black" and Charcoal as Blackdotte has mentioned. There are a lot of Barney roosters with orange in hackle in NZ and the satndard (in my opinion) is either wrong or needs to have double pen matings if you want to win in either gender classes

    I have Barneys myself, happy to help, and would love to know where you sourced your blue barnies from

    cheers
     

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