Red Leakage on Blue Splash -- Correctable?

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by Fyremelody, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. Fyremelody

    Fyremelody Out Of The Brooder

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    Hey all! So...a search for "red leakage" yields results that are too vast for me to read in probably a month :) LOL.

    Can you "correct" red leakage on a blue splash? I understand the faster solution is to cull it out. But can you correct it via selective crosses? My understanding is that breeding to a darker black can improve it in F1. I would assume then that F1 bred to the same non-leaky black, would eradicate the recessive even more in F2? Am I completely off?

    Really don't want to cull the roo... particularly since I wasn't necessarily looking to go SQ with the splash variety, but more of backyard flock variety.
     
  2. donrae

    donrae Hopelessly Addicted Premium Member

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    I'll be looking for the answer from experts, but will chime in with something else to keep in mind....

    If you're just breeding for backyard birds and to sell some locally, lots of non-showing folks like the red leakage as it makes the bird more colorful. I was quite disappointed in my splash Ameraucana cockerel when he developed moderate leakage, but I've decided to keep him. I'll be using him to breed sex links, not pure bred birds, and think the red leakage will look nice on the blue hens. From what I've seen they'll sell pretty well also. Just depends on what you're looking for.
     
  3. rainbowrooster

    rainbowrooster Chillin' With My Peeps

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    No you cant correct the red leakage if you continue to use this and similar birds. The red leakage is from using gold based black birds in a blue breeding program. If you don't want red leakage then you will need to find Silver based birds.
     
  4. Fyremelody

    Fyremelody Out Of The Brooder

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    Thank you both.

    Rainbowrooster -- This may sound dumb. But do I just go about asking other breeders if their birds are silver-based until I find someone who can definitively answer me? I'm presuming there's no way to visually recognize it on an otherwise correct bird.

    And is this leakage a recessive or dominant trait? I'm assuming recessive, which would not guarantee leakage every time. Now... on the other side of that coin, since I'm just learning about breeding ... and this is one of those ethics questions other people who've been in this longer would have answers to. Let's say I did cross him and he had non-leakage offspring. Is there anything unethical about offering those offspring with the disclosure that they have the potential to leak?

    I ask, because I come from horses, and it was/is always my standard when dealing with "high end" foals and potential buyers to disclose everything I knew, related to improving the get and how to pair for better get. That was sort of standard if you were to be "reputable". Folks who just sold what they had, buyer beware, were not those whom I wanted to a) resemble or b) associate with. Are the worlds drastically different?
     
  5. Winterwolfbane

    Winterwolfbane Out Of The Brooder

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    Sounds like Autosomal red modifiers? They're semi-recessive and not well understood. Can't tell from a solid black bird if it is silver or gold based or carries these without test mating it to something to find out. It's complicated figuring this all out and a common problem.

    These auto red genes are not effected by the silver sex-linked genes either. Or effected by the blue genes at all. And show up as a red/gold looking leakage in birds like blue or splash. That is known to be genetically silver. Or silver based hens that have come from red birds. As seen in Light Sussex hens bred from Buff Sussex.
    I have found that finding purely silver based birds to breed to. Doesn't cure the problem completely and selection against it is the only good solution. Went through this with Sussex and Columbian Marans. Most breeders don't even know what their birds are based on to tell you anyway.

    Only other thing I can think of is the splash is a silver that carries gold. A sex-linked bird. Test mating will determine what he is. Bred to gold based hens if he is sex-linked silver and gold. You will get silver and gold daughters. If he's purely silver, all his daughters will be silver too, but if any show red leakage, It's auto red genes.
    Sometimes the autosomal red shows as a yellowing in the hackles of an otherwise "white" bird too. It's a royal pain in the back side to deal with.

    Hope I have been of some help?

    Usually if you get at least two-three clean generations. Bred to each other. Where there is no sign of this red leakage. You should be able to sell them without worry of it coming back.

    Otherwise, honesty is the best policy and disclosure will keep you out of trouble. :)
     
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  6. Fyremelody

    Fyremelody Out Of The Brooder

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    I never said thank you Winterwolfbane -- thank you very much! It does help, indeed!
     
  7. Winterwolfbane

    Winterwolfbane Out Of The Brooder

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    Oh, you're welcome. [​IMG]

    I forgot to mention. That when making blue/splash. Silver genes really do a good job of cleaning up blue. Making it a lighter shade, like Lavender. (Blue and lavender genes are different and interact differently with other genes, both are based on black though. And on the bird look a lot alike, but there are differences.) You're less likely to get dark blue birds, you can't tell from black. If it's based on silver, rather then gold or brown..... Not all black/blues that carry "gold" or are gold underneath, show red in their feathering. I found this out with cochin bantams. I'm sure it's probably true with other breeds?

    Before you ask, and just for reference incase you need it? LOL! [​IMG] Blue is what is called a "leaky" gene. Why blue or splash often have darker spots on their feathers. Blue birds can have darker lacing on their feathering and darker neck and sometimes tail color. And as you know will work with (or not) gold, red and buff. So can make say Buff Blue Sussex, or Blue Red Duckwing. Because it has no effect on red genes. It's a dominate, modifier of black. Blue bred to blue will give you blue (50%), black (25%) and splash (25%). It doesn't breed true to just blue.
    Lavender on the other hand, is recessive and a restrictor of black, making the bird the same shade of pale blue over the entire bird. BUT it turns red, gold and buff into a cream/yellow color (about the same in looks as auto red shows up on some silver birds, only difference is auto red sometimes looks "pinkish" or a pale buff color). Lavender is also called "Self Blue". Lavender bred to Lavender will always produce Lavender.

    I know, I'm a bit long winded. LOL! Just covering the bases. I know how hard it is to start learning genetics. I was there once and really wished someone would of come along and at least tried to explain things to me. Or point me in some direction. So really understand your position. I was where you are at, once too. If you have any other questions or problems. Feel free to ask. [​IMG] I'll do my best to help.[​IMG]
     
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  8. n8ivetxn

    n8ivetxn Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I know this is an old thread, thank you all for the wonderful info.....I'm just beginning with chicken genetics myself. I was trying to discover this guy's genetics:

    [​IMG]

    He is a rumpless/tufted araucana, with a couple of tail feathers.....
     
  9. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    He appears to be a black tailed white. It would carry the columbian gene or the dark brown gene and sex-linked silver. There is no white edging on the few tail feathers so I favor the columbian gene as being the restrictor. The E locus allele could be brown, wheaten or wild type. The red in the shoulders, etc. is from autosomal red. He has yellow skin so he carries two recessive yellow skin genes, He also carries sex-linked dermal melanin inhibitor. Looks like a pea comb so he is carrying two pea comb allelles at the p comb locus and recessive alleles at the rose and duplex comb loci. There are other genes he carries; I mentioned what I believe are the most important.
     
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  10. Fred's Hens

    Fred's Hens Chicken Obsessed Premium Member

    Easter Egger. Araucana with yellow shanks?
     

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