Riddle me this / lemon blue with the barring gene

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Dipsy Doodle Doo, Dec 7, 2008.

  1. Hi! I was pondering the possibilities (and ' m seeing such a variety from chicks ) that I wondered is there someIone who understands the genetics of this roo (he was left here as an afterglow of a trade), but I was told he's 'lemon blue with the barring gene'
    Can you PUNNET lemon blue?
    :
    [​IMG]

    He is with alll blue and black girls...,

    [​IMG]
    Thanks again
     
  2. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

    6,511
    647
    361
    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    Yes. I don't know what are the official scientific names for barring and blue but you can use any letter that will help you remember in private working of Punnet square.. like I made up B=barred and S= "splash" to make it more obvious which gene is being figured out in Punnett. Splash just because the pure form of blue is splash..

    He's probably Bb for barring, which would make him BbSs

    For the hens, they would be b-Ss for the blues and b-ss for the blacks. Remember that barring is sex linked so hens can only have one copy of it at most. So hens can only be either b- or B- with the - representing the "Y" gene.

    For putting on a Punnet square, you will need to do a bigger square with 4 rows instead of the two for a one gene square.

    Down the rooster side of the square put: BS, Bs, bS and bs

    For the blue hen row, put bS, bs, -S and -s

    Black hen row, bs, bs, -s and -s

    All boxes that get the - in them will be the female chicks.

    Mind you, this deals directly only with the sex linked barring and the blue genes. It does not deal with the lemon blue phenotype nor the solid black/blue hens as we don't know if the rooster & hens are birchens(with the hens dark) or they are all blacks but the rooster is 'leaky'.. or he's a birchen and the hens are blacks. Besides trying to do Punnett with more genes is possible but the square gets BIG lol..

    My guess though is that the chicks probably will come out a mix of possibly some solid colored with a bunch of them showing some color on hackles/saddles or breasts.
     
  3. onthespot

    onthespot Deluxe Dozens

    7,187
    20
    271
    Mar 29, 2008
    Riverside/Norco, CA
    Is birchen dominant, recessive, or co-dominant, (or something else) any one know?

    oops, i meant incomplete dominant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2008
  4. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

    6,511
    647
    361
    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    Birchen is dominant. Thing is, there are several mutants at the exact same gene location. They are in order of dominance: black, birchen, wheaten, red duckwing, partridge.


    A gene is labeled dominant or recessive by how it reacts with the "wild type" gene- which is red duckwing for chickens. Birchen is dominant over duckwing.
     
  5. onthespot

    onthespot Deluxe Dozens

    7,187
    20
    271
    Mar 29, 2008
    Riverside/Norco, CA
    if someone crosses copper black with straight black, and gets a black offspring, is the birchen gene gone, or will it pop back up?
     
  6. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

    6,511
    647
    361
    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    That's a pretty complicated question really. There is more than one way to make a solid black chicken. The most common are using black and birchen. Black often does not turn a chicken totally black, with leaks on the hackles/saddle.. looking awful lot like a birchen in fact.

    A lot of solid black chickens actually are birchen, with extra genes to get rid of the color on the hackles/saddles.

    So looking at a solid black chicken.. which one is it? Birchen or black?

    However, strictly genetically speaking, black is dominant over birchen. So that means a black can be carrying birchen and can throw birchens if bred with another birchen carrier or with a birchen bird.

    But as you see from above, all kinds of possible combinations is possible such as the solid black in reality being a birchen with helper genes so you are essentially doing a birchen x birchen anyways. I'm not familiar with the helper genes- don't know if they are dominant, recessive or both if there is more than one.

    It is a good rule to consider a cross as being a carrier- such as this case,a black offspring being a "birchen carrier" and this bird bred to another black would produce some offspring that are "carriers" etc.
     
  7. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

    1,984
    120
    204
    Jul 19, 2008
    Missouri
    I have been working with breeders of the Marans. More than one person I have been consulting has crossed their black coppers and black birds have been produced. The documented gene that extends black in the pyle zone of a male rooster and adds black to a female is melanotic. There is another gene called charcoal that adds black to the neck hackles and backs of both male and female birds.

    It is my opinion that some black intensifiers are also recessive. How else would a person cross two birds that are black coppers(BC) and this cross produce solid black adult offspring. The two BC carried the gene that caused the birds to be black.

    There needs to be more research carried out to learn the relationship between heterozygous extended black/birchen and columbian restrictors (like columbian or dark brown). Columbian restrictors remove black pigment from the body feathers of birds leaving silver (white) or red feathers.

    Tim
     
  8. Kev

    Kev Overrun With Chickens

    6,511
    647
    361
    Jan 13, 2008
    Sun City, California
    Very interesting, Tim.

    Have you heard comments from breeders having a problem with their "black copper" stock with the roosters showing more or less the desired color pattern yet the hens either are solid black or have too little black? What would your guess as for those stock? (I'm wondering if those may be E instead of ER)

    What effect if any does melanotic and charcoal have on an e+ bird? Just so I have a slightly better understanding of their expression to recognize which birds may have it.

    Regarding color on pyle zones: what is it that makes the pyle zone feathers look brown instead of red on some birds- Db?
     
  9. pbjmaker

    pbjmaker Overrun With Chickens

    May 9, 2008
    Central Iowa
    I would love for someone to figure out dipsey's roo. I have 4 of her chicks left. One is black barred, 2 are just blue, and the newest one is blue/dark blue with faint cuckoo. Oddly though she has one white spot growing in above her eye. The males I got rid of were another blue, another blue/dark blue cuckoo and a black barred.

    Don't know if that info helps with Dipsey's question. But any info would help me figure out what color smooth male I might want to get. I do love that lemon blue look...
     

BackYard Chickens is proudly sponsored by