RiR Flock killed two younger chicks

[Dmalcom]

I have 8 RiR chickens about 7 months of age... we recently got 4 more chicks. 2 polish laces and 2 barred maran hens. We split a section of our large coop to try to help intigrate them, they are about 3 months old now.

Two of them seem to have found a way out of the separation and were killed while we were at work...

Needless to say it was pretty upsetting.

I guess my question is... how hard is it to intigrate. I feel like the chicks were almost caught up in size. Obviously we didn't plan on integrating fully for some time but I am just worried about how hostile my RiR seem to be... is this normal?

 

[MysteryChicken]

RIRs from my experience are abit more difficult, oftentimes aggressive. I've raised too many of them.

 

[_-Captain BRM-_]

I have a flock of chicks that has had no troubles integrating with my generally sweet flock. It really varies on your flocks personality. I have definitely had my bullies in the past.

 

[aart]

We split a section of our large coop to try to help intigrate them,

How large, in feet by feet?
Some pics might help here @Dmalcom

they are about 3 months old now.

Have the chicks been separated in your coop since they were day olds?

I integrate chicks young, like 3-4 weeks.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/integrating-new-birds-at-4-weeks-old.72603/

 

[Dmalcom]

How large, in feet by feet?
Some pics might help here @Dmalcom


Have the chicks been separated in your coop since they were day olds?

I integrate chicks young, like 3-4 weeks.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/integrating-new-birds-at-4-weeks-old.72603/

Coop is 8x5 so 35ft2 plus a 4x2 nesting area.

Runs 10x10 plus under the coop 5x8 for total of 135ft2

We kept them in the garage until 4 or 5 weeks then in the coop section the past month or so. The sectioned area is 2.5x4 so 1/4 plus half the nesting box. We removed one divider and left the other two giving the larger area 2 boxes. We used garden netting so they could see each other but not interact.

I think it was a combination of bad factors, they got out into the run without being familiar with how to get back. There is no cover in the run for them to hide under, my wife and I left early so they missed the morning scratch, and the flock was under a lot of stress as we just had our first snow and day below freezing.

We have 8 RiR with 1 rooster. We were trying to intigrate 2 golden polish and 2 barred marans.


It may have even been just the rooster as the hens seem more tolerant of the chicks.

 

[Dmalcom]

How large, in feet by feet?
Some pics might help here @Dmalcom


Have the chicks been separated in your coop since they were day olds?

I integrate chicks young, like 3-4 weeks.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/integrating-new-birds-at-4-weeks-old.72603/

I just read your post. Very interesting. If it were summer I may try something similar with maybe small door for chicks to escape into the coop. I think the main issue is that my coop is about 2ft off the ground and the chicks probably had a hard time finding their way back after getting into the run

 

[aart]

Coop is 8x5...Runs 10x10 plus under the coop 5x8

Tight space for 12 birds that grew up together.
Really small for integration purposes.
Clutter is essential for integration.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-cluttered-run.1323792/

I think the main issue is that my coop is about 2ft off the ground and the chicks probably had a hard time finding their way back after getting into the run

That's why my chick section has it's own run and ramp, so they learn that before integration.

our first snow and day below freezing.

Where in this world are you located?
Climate, and time of year, is almost always a factor.
Please add your general geographical location to your profile.
It's easy to do, and then it's always there!

 

[Dmalcom]

Tight space for 12 birds that grew up together.
Really small for integration purposes.
Clutter is essential for integration.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-cluttered-run.1323792/


That's why my chick section has it's own run and ramp, so they learn that before integration.
View attachment 3302198


Where in this world are you located?
Climate, and time of year, is almost always a factor.
Please add your general geographical location to your profile.
It's easy to do, and then it's always there!
View attachment 3302201

Generally speaking I tried to follow a 4ft2 per bird rule for coop and 12ft2 per bird for run we originally had 10 RiR that was designed and built for giving 13.5 per bird outside and 3.8 per bird inside. With 12 the numbers are closer to 11.5 outside and 3 inside which I suppose is on the tighter end. What happened is we bought RiR exclusively for egg laying then decided to diversify the flock but had to purchase a minimum of 4 birds so we gave away 2 RiR and bought the 4 pullets. We also free range our birds in a 16x10 ish fruit tree enclosure in summers.

The ramp thing is smart my coop only currently has single access which I can see being an issue while trying to intigrate.

I live in Utah in the mountains so altitude plays a big role. We live near Mt. Pleasant UT for reference. I have frequented this site a lot for advise when building and designing the coop and run. Finally just decided to sign up in light of recent events.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I guess my question is... how hard is it to intigrate.

Sometimes integration is extremely easy, no drama at all. Sometimes it is a disaster, as you have seen. There are a lot of different parts to that and it can be different for different people, even if things seem the same.

One big factor is room. I know you constantly read on here where 4 square feet per chicken in the coop and 10 square feet in the run is utopia. Real life doesn't work that way. The 4 and 10 work petty well for most people if you have a small flock that is already fully integrated and you have no more than one rooster. For many people it is overkill, more than enough room. For some it can be a bit tight but usually pretty good.
But when you try keeping an additional rooster, let a broody hen raise chicks with the flock, or integrate it is often not enough. Trying to integrate chickens with different maturity levels can be worse. There are tricks we use to make it easier and sometimes it isn't too bad, but as you saw it can be really bad.

I feel like the chicks were almost caught up in size.

This is one of the fallacies. Size is not what is important, maturity level is. It isn't unusual for bantams to dominate full sized fowl. It is the spirit that counts, not size. More mature chickens outrank less mature chickens and are often not shy about defending their pecking order rights, especially if the younger invade their personal space.

One way chickens have learned to live together in a flock is that when there is conflict the weaker runs away and stays away. It's not a square feet thing. If they don't have enough room to get away then the stronger doesn't know that they won and keep attacking. If they don't have enough room to avoid it's hard to not invade personal space if the older ones wander in their direction. The older do not understand that they caused it.

I am just worried about how hostile my RiR seem to be... is this normal?

More normal than I wish it were whether you have Silkies, Orpington, or RIR. To me the breed isn't that important, they are all chickens. My juvenile pullets tend to avoid the adult flock until they mature enough to start laying. That seems to be a right of passage into the adult flock. When I have different aged broods out there the different aged juveniles tend to avoid each other. This is not always true. Sometimes the different ages mingle a lot. Often it is much better than I make it sound. But mine have enough room to get away and avoid if they need to.

It may have even been just the rooster as the hens seem more tolerant of the chicks.

At 7 months he may not actually be a mature rooster, possibly still an immature cockerel. There can be a big difference in behaviors between the two. With my flock a mature rooster doesn't threaten the chicks, he is more likely to help take care of them if he doesn't just ignore them. The hens are generally where the threat comes from if there is a threat. But mine are introduced to the rooster when they are very young, he assumes they are his offspring. It is certainly possible he is either too young to have developed those behaviors or they are old enough he assumes they are not his. Immature cockerels and immature pullets just don't always behave like mature roosters and hens. Roosters and hens can be a threat to chicks, especially in tight spaces, but I find juveniles to be more of a threat.

I think the main issue is that my coop is about 2ft off the ground and the chicks probably had a hard time finding their way back after getting into the run

You could certainly be correct. They may not have known how to get back up there or may have been trapped where they couldn't. What often happens if they can't get away is that they hunker down and try to protect their head. The older keeps attacking since the don't understand the others have given up or they don't care.

So what can you do? Housing them where they can see each other is a step in the right direction. You've done that for the last month. It does help but obviously wasn't enough by itself.

Give them as much room as you can, in the coop and outside. That's not always easy. You can often improve the quality of what room you have by adding clutter. From one of your comments I think you understand what I'm talking about.

Your Polish are probably bantams but the Marans are not. You may be able to set up a safe haven area for the Polish (holes small enough they can get through but the RIR cannot) but there may not be enough size difference to benefit the Marans.

Try to set up separate feeding and watering stations so they all can eat without conflict. That may in the coop and in the run but maybe you can do that in the run with clutter to help you.

Try to not force them to share space. As much as you can, leave it up to them when they want to get together.

I'd consider rehoming the younger ones until the others actually grow up, then try some more. I think mature hens and roosters are easier to deal with than juveniles.

 

[Dmalcom]

Sometimes integration is extremely easy, no drama at all. Sometimes it is a disaster, as you have seen. There are a lot of different parts to that and it can be different for different people, even if things seem the same.

One big factor is room. I know you constantly read on here where 4 square feet per chicken in the coop and 10 square feet in the run is utopia. Real life doesn't work that way. The 4 and 10 work petty well for most people if you have a small flock that is already fully integrated and you have no more than one rooster. For many people it is overkill, more than enough room. For some it can be a bit tight but usually pretty good.
But when you try keeping an additional rooster, let a broody hen raise chicks with the flock, or integrate it is often not enough. Trying to integrate chickens with different maturity levels can be worse. There are tricks we use to make it easier and sometimes it isn't too bad, but as you saw it can be really bad.


This is one of the fallacies. Size is not what is important, maturity level is. It isn't unusual for bantams to dominate full sized fowl. It is the spirit that counts, not size. More mature chickens outrank less mature chickens and are often not shy about defending their pecking order rights, especially if the younger invade their personal space.

One way chickens have learned to live together in a flock is that when there is conflict the weaker runs away and stays away. It's not a square feet thing. If they don't have enough room to get away then the stronger doesn't know that they won and keep attacking. If they don't have enough room to avoid it's hard to not invade personal space if the older ones wander in their direction. The older do not understand that they caused it.


More normal than I wish it were whether you have Silkies, Orpington, or RIR. To me the breed isn't that important, they are all chickens. My juvenile pullets tend to avoid the adult flock until they mature enough to start laying. That seems to be a right of passage into the adult flock. When I have different aged broods out there the different aged juveniles tend to avoid each other. This is not always true. Sometimes the different ages mingle a lot. Often it is much better than I make it sound. But mine have enough room to get away and avoid if they need to.


At 7 months he may not actually be a mature rooster, possibly still an immature cockerel. There can be a big difference in behaviors between the two. With my flock a mature rooster doesn't threaten the chicks, he is more likely to help take care of them if he doesn't just ignore them. The hens are generally where the threat comes from if there is a threat. But mine are introduced to the rooster when they are very young, he assumes they are his offspring. It is certainly possible he is either too young to have developed those behaviors or they are old enough he assumes they are not his. Immature cockerels and immature pullets just don't always behave like mature roosters and hens. Roosters and hens can be a threat to chicks, especially in tight spaces, but I find juveniles to be more of a threat.


You could certainly be correct. They may not have known how to get back up there or may have been trapped where they couldn't. What often happens if they can't get away is that they hunker down and try to protect their head. The older keeps attacking since the don't understand the others have given up or they don't care.

So what can you do? Housing them where they can see each other is a step in the right direction. You've done that for the last month. It does help but obviously wasn't enough by itself.

Give them as much room as you can, in the coop and outside. That's not always easy. You can often improve the quality of what room you have by adding clutter. From one of your comments I think you understand what I'm talking about.

Your Polish are probably bantams but the Marans are not. You may be able to set up a safe haven area for the Polish (holes small enough they can get through but the RIR cannot) but there may not be enough size difference to benefit the Marans.

Try to set up separate feeding and watering stations so they all can eat without conflict. That may in the coop and in the run but maybe you can do that in the run with clutter to help you.

Try to not force them to share space. As much as you can, leave it up to them when they want to get together.

I'd consider rehoming the younger ones until the others actually grow up, then try some more. I think mature hens and roosters are easier to deal with than juveniles.

Thanks for the reply and the insight.

I definitely feel like you may be right and we just are at an awkward age. The rooster doesn't crow yet and the hens are about a month out from laying.

We are going to try to integrate the remaining two very slowly. The two that escaped into the run were not intended to be interacting with the larger flock. We have been more laxed because a few of the smaller RIR hens like to jump the dividers in the nesting box when we open it and interact with the chicks, they used to peck but then up until this they seemed to be becoming a lot less hostile, still pushy like trying to get to their food etc. But mostly tolerant. Not sure if this was the right move but I read somewhere having your good natured hens interact can help bring the new chicks into the fold. I think these hens are low on the pecking order and were trying to establish themselves above the new chicks.

Ultimately if we can't integrate these two into the flock we will give them away and try again in spring when food is more plentiful and the main group has reached maturity.