Second Generation Muscovy Hybrids: Haldane's Rule & Hybrid Genetics

[ANightPerson]

Anyone with hybridization knowledge, or anyone who breeds/has bred Mules, feel free to chime in. I'm piecing together whether or not starting a project in the future is worth it and any help is appreciated.

Basically, I was thinking that I could breed a huge batch of mules using a Pekin drake that I have on hand, and with several Muscovy hens. From that batch, I would sell/cull (if necessary) any hens, and raise the drakes into adulthood. Then, I'd put half of the drakes with a flock of Muscovy hens, and half with a flock of Mallard-derived hens. They would be the only drakes in either flock, so I would know that any ducklings would gen two.

To anyone about to reply "hybrids are sterile", here's a post that I made about Haldane's Rule, which states the pattern of fertility in hybrid species:
"The occasional fertility of hyrbid offspring is referred to as Haldane's Rule. In plain terms, it states that the gender hybrid with two same sex chromosomes (XX Female in Mammals, ZZ Male in reptiles and birds) can be partially fertile in some instances. Rather, it states that those with same sex chromosomes are just poorly fertile as opposed to infertile (if the parent species are closely related, at least), whereas those with two different sex chromosomes (XY male in Mammals, ZW female in reptiles and birds) will be (in almost every instance) sterile.
So (male) Donkey XY x (female) Horse XX= (male, infertile) Mule XY, (female, poorly fertile) Mule XX
(female, poorly fertile) Mule XX x (male) Horse OR Donkey XY= (male, fertile*) F2 Mule XY, (female, fertile) F2 Mule XX
OR
(male) Mallard ZZ x (female) Muscovy ZW= (male, poorly fertile) Gamebird Hybrid ZZ, (female, infertile) Gamebird Hybrid ZW
(male, poorly fertile) Gamebird Hybrid ZZ x (female) Mallard OR Muscovy ZW= (male, fertile) F2 Gamebird Hybrid ZZ, (female, fertile*) F2 Gamebird Hybrid ZW
*Less than fully fertile, more than poorly fertile"

Biologically, I know it's possible. Skimming through some threads similar in topic, I've seen people mention F2 or F3 ducks that have "a little Muscovy in them", so there are some out there that have done it.

The purpose of breeding F2s is mainly just personal interest--to start a flock or two of hybrids that are fertile, and possibly to start my own project breed out of it. Another big factor is bringing genes and patterns from one species to the hybrids, to maybe make something interesting and new, like bringing the full-body barring of Muscovies onto birds that look more Mallard.

If anyone has anything to add to this, any knowledge to share, or any constructive criticism, please feel free to add it. I'd like to know the actual logistics and probabilities here, but there isn't much information to find on breeding hybrids (F1 or F2).

 

[Kessel23]

Very interesting plan. I was going to do something similar myself, I did not know that mule drakes from MD drake x Muscovy hen crosses could be fertile until very recently. The idea has been in the back of my head since then. I only have one mule drake though so the chances of getting something from him are slim. The only thing stopping me from producing a ton of hybrids this spring is my plans for call ducks, runner ducks, and geese, I won't have much room to do anything with hybrids. I hope you do this experiment, I would love to see the results.

I accidently produced 2 mule ducks this fall, the dad was pekin and the mom was muscovy, either a chocolate or a white.

I have a question, are all mule drakes from the MD drake x muscovy hen cross fertile and just have very low fertility rates or are there just a few that are fertile? Sorry if you already answered this, I might have skimmed over it or misunderstood something.

 

[ANightPerson]

Very interesting plan. I was going to do something similar myself, I did not know that mule drakes from MD drake x Muscovy hen crosses could be fertile until very recently. The idea has been in the back of my head since then. I only have one mule drake though so the chances of getting something from him are slim. The only thing stopping me from producing a ton of hybrids this spring is my plans for call ducks, runner ducks, and geese, I won't have much room to do anything with hybrids. I hope you do this experiment, I would love to see the results.

I accidently produced 2 mule ducks this fall, the dad was pekin and the mom was muscovy, either a chocolate or a white.

I have a question, are all mule drakes from the MD drake x muscovy hen cross fertile and just have very low fertility rates or are there just a few that are fertile? Sorry if you already answered this, I might have skimmed over it or misunderstood something.

It's sort of both. They could be poorly fertile, but they very well could be sterile. It really all depends on each specific cross in each specific duck.

Beautiful birds! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Quacking Pigeon]

I have two mule drakes who breed a lot. I may pair them up with my Pekin ducks.

 

[Kessel23]

I have two mule drakes who breed a lot. I may pair them up with my Pekin ducks.

Have you gotten any offspring from them? I am would love to see pictures of second generation hybrids.

 

[learycow]

I would love to hear the results if you do!
In the research I've done, chances of fertility are really low, like 2-3%. So in the next generation you would need to set a TON of eggs in hopes that at least a few are fertile, and make it to hatching.

As for the barring, I have achieved the full body barring in first generation crosses (muscovy being the mother in the breedings I did).They are usually colorful birds too regardless of gender

 

[Kessel23]

I would love to hear the results if you do!
In the research I've done, chances of fertility are really low, like 2-3%. So in the next generation you would need to set a TON of eggs in hopes that at least a few are fertile, and make it to hatching.

As for the barring, I have achieved the full body barring in first generation crosses (muscovy being the mother in the breedings I did).They are usually colorful birds too regardless of gender

I have already asked this question but is the 2-3% the chance of a drake being fertile or the amount of hens mated that will lay a fertile egg?

 

[learycow]

I have already asked this question but is the 2-3% the chance of a drake being fertile or the amount of hens mated that will lay a fertile egg?

Both
One mix will produce hens that will lay eggs, one mix will produce non egg laying hens.

 

[ANightPerson]

Both
One mix will produce hens that will lay eggs, one mix will produce non egg laying hens.

I have already asked this question but is the 2-3% the chance of a drake being fertile or the amount of hens mated that will lay a fertile egg?

One mix (Muscovy female x MD male) produces F1 females that lay eggs, but they're infertile.

To make gen 1, I'd probably start with three Muscovy hens to test a little. I'd let them each hatch out their own, but I'd also incubate and use a broody hen of any of mine so happen to be in the mood at the right time.

It's a nice thought, but my main focus this year is breeding my rabbits. I've got myself down to the bone on my animal budget without much wiggle room until the end of the year. Nonetheless, I'll probably still get a Muscovy hen or two (or, much cheaper and much nicer, raise some ducklings) once the snow here melts for good.

 

[Kessel23]

Both
One mix will produce hens that will lay eggs, one mix will produce non egg laying hens.

I was actually asking about the 2-3% thing. What I was wondering is, are you saying if I have a drake from a MD drake x Muscovy hen cross and breed it to hens 2-3% of the eggs will be fertile or are you saying 2-3% of drakes from this cross are fertile?