Should I euthanize?

Discussion in 'Raising Baby Chicks' started by aggie2013, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. aggie2013

    aggie2013 Out Of The Brooder

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    These chicks are just 3 weeks old. The SB problem has gotten much worse. The black feels like nothing but bones. I think I'm going to have to cull him. The blue I don't know though.

    This is a link to my original post about these two. https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1135973/what-to-do#post_17596881

    I don't want to cull unless there isn't another option.
     
  2. Jensownzoo

    Jensownzoo Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The other option is hand-feeding until they figure out how to eat with their abnormal beaks. Otherwise they are just starving to death and it would be kinder to end it quickly.

    Use a hand-feeding formula designed for baby birds as it is more nutrient-dense if you choose that route.
     
  3. ChickenChaser9

    ChickenChaser9 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    If you are not sure its time to cull....it isn't time to cull. Hand/spoon/dropper feeding works. If the chicken does not want to survive you cant make it but if it wants to live it will take the offered food/water. Do what you can. I had 3 chicks with Vit E deficiencies experiencing daily seizures and were unable to even stand for more than a minute without support. All 3 survived. 1 of them is in the very top of the pecking order at this point.
     
  4. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    Quote from your earlier post:
    "I looked it up and found that it is called scissor beak and its genetic. When I told the breeder of the issue she replied she knows she has a problem in that pen. She couldn't tell me which one of hers is throwing it. Yet she still sold me these eggs."
    -----------------------------------
    Oh I hope you are as pi**ed as I was when I read this!
    Shame on that breeder for not being forthright about traits in her birds. Look what anguish it has wrought!!
    Kill the scissor beak chicks, They will never be able to have a normal life. Keep none for breeding. Sell the females as egg layers,. Make sure the buyers know they are not breeding stock because of this trait. Kill all males. Live and learn, sigh. I know what it's like to start over again because a breeder wasn't forthright with knowledge about their birds. ( in one breed I started over 5 times before giving up and moving to another breed where I found success) Maybe go to the Ameraucana breed club and see who they are recommending. I am so sorry this happened to you. Start over again with quality stock. You don't want to be messing around trying to fix her problem. Esp. when she won't even tell you where it is coming from!
    Now I am going to tell you a secret to success in quality poultry. Start out with "started birds". Birds at least 12 weeks old. That the breeder has checked for quality at least once. Yes, they will cost a little more but look how much time and money you have sunk into these poor quality chicks already. That's what I did when I finally found success in Light Sussex after 5 failures in Marans)
    Actually, this is a brilliant time of year to start over again. The breeders are downsizing their flocks for over wintering. Really nice birds with just a few failures in show points will be on the market as the breeders downsize and make their final selectons for the winter show season. These are birds they have raised special for the poultry shows that for some reason, maybe color or something fall just a bit short of what the breeder was looking for. These birds make great starter stock because they carry all the good genetics of that breeder's show strain and all you need to do is figure out how to correct the birds small shortcomings. A good breeder will tell you exactly where the bird fails for showing. And what you can do to correct it in the future.
    Plus retiring breeder birds will be for sale. Really nice birds just not needed any more in their breeder's programs because they already have enough chidren from them. They can be a great deal. Birds with one or two breeding seasons left in them to get you off to a strong start in the breed. A good breeder will want you to succeed with their birds, instead of taking advantage of your newness to that breed. Make that your motto when selecting a breeder to buy from.
    I know this all seems like a failure right now but actually, it is a quality lesson learned which will stand you in good stead when you buy your next birds. Started birds, or breeder birds will also redeem the time lost raising these other birds and get you back on track with the rest of us for next season.
    Best,
    Karen on western PA, USA
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
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  5. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    Ok, let's get you started off on the road to find some real nice quality Ameraucanas
    you can be proud of even if you decide not to show them!!!!


    The national Club:
    http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/
    I don't know a lot of Ameraucana breeders but I have known Ernie and Peggy for years from the Marans breed. They show a lot. Their top winning Marans birds were not related to...or the same color as the Marans I failed with. Now I see they have Ameraucanas too.
    Ernie Haire, TX
    Peggy Taylor, TX
    Look at these lovely birds. http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/national2015.html
    Maybe contact their breeders, listed in the breeder's directory below:
    http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/docs/breedersdirectory_2015.pdf
    here's a list of exhibitor points for 2016.
    http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/docs/Open Points by Variety - 2016 YTD.pdf
    If it interests you to read how the Club calculates the points you will see how hard the breeders have to work to accumulate them. http://ameraucanabreedersclub.org/points.html
    From the point chart "Open Points By Variety - 2-16 YTD" ( Year To Date) :
    Choose large fowl or bantam. Then look who has the most points in the colors you are interested in. Then contact them via the Breeder's Directory. Do not bash this other breeder who failed you!! Do not name the breeder. Whe starting over again, discretion is the better part of valor. Trust me, been there a lot of times. Just tell the seller you had an unsuccessful start in the breed and are looking for better stock. Don't get roped into a bashing sesssion. Sellers can be leery of selling to anyone they think may take them to task because of the buyers newness to the breed. This is a very important point and a critical skill in working with quality breeders. Some people never learn it. They go from breeder to breeder lamentng the poor stock sold to them from a previous breeder whom they bash and end up griping on the Net why no one will sell them quality stock. It's sad. Why would any quality breeder take chance this person might decide to make them their next tirade? Just move onward and upward, smile. Ask about started birds, retiring breeder birds and "almost show quality birds". Tell them which colors you want and your plans for them. It is important to have some kind of plan you can articulate to the seller. esp.one which does not include crossbreeding their birds to another breed.
    Oh I forgot, read a couple of books on the breed so you aren't a total novice when it comes to breed history, smile. Always a nice touch which will stand you in good stead when you want to understand the nuances of the breed. That special "X" factor which makes an Ameraucana bird truly a standout bird in the breed.
    One more thing, if you are the joining type, spend the 12.00 to join the Club. It shows you want to support the breed. Plus you get a cool handbook and even tho it is Oct. you get all 4 of the quarterly Bulletins full of good info!
    Best,
    Karen in western PA, USA
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  6. FarmerTony

    FarmerTony Out Of The Brooder

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    I suggest culling any weak or deformed birds. Otherwise you are opening the door to your whole flock having problems after a few generations. Remember, its line breeding when it works, and inbreeding when it does not.
     
  7. aggie2013

    aggie2013 Out Of The Brooder

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    Thank you for all that information and advice. I truly mean it.
    I've looked up a breeder that is actually the president of his area for the breeders club. In a couple of weeks I will visit him and pick out my birds. He is downsizing right now just like you said. He has had several national champions himself and more from his lines that other have entered.
    Sadly I didn't read about your advice about other breeders in time. >_> whoops. Lesson learned there.
    He said I can pick from his layer or his show quality stock. I have a couple of weeks to make up my mind. I would love to show but I don't know if that financially possible for me.
     
  8. Folly's place

    Folly's place Chicken Obsessed

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    There are threads here about managing cross beaked chicks. Mainly they need crumble, mash, or dampened food in a deep dish, so they can get food past that awful beak. Hand feeding can be done, but it's your decision, either to euthanize before he actually starves to death, or do what it takes to give him a life. If it's a cockerel, he's going to be dinner sometime, and if a pullet, egglaying is a very big job nutritionally, so difficult to support with eating problems. Karen is so right to slam the 'breeder' who sent these eggs!!! So sorry. Mary
     
  9. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    Oh aggie, I am just thrilled for you! Just let the "old breeder thang" go. Don't spend time apologizing. Just once let the top breeder know, your were disappointed and now are moving on. If you have already done that, then don't bother to repeat it, smile. Just water under the bridge and move on telling the new breeder the truth that you want to move on and have a real nice quality flock of Ameraucanas.
    Buy the very best you can afford. You won't regret it and it will pay large dividends in the end. There are a slew of sex-linked traits in poultry. Top breeders like the one you met have bred their gene pools so the genes are stabilized to replicate excellence over the generations. Whatever you do, do not cross strains to found your flock. It's not necessary. Just tell the breeder when you want to breed your birds and have him/her help you select a bird from their strain which will complement your birds.
    The basic rule of thumb for adding new blood is to do it thru the female side with no more than 1/4 of the genetics foreign to the strain you already have.... But listen to your breeder first. It is critical until you learn how these birds inherit and throw traits. Maybe 3 generations. Until you learn how to manipulate the genes on your own, smile. I can just about garauntee you this top breeder got where he/she is by listening to other top breeders.
    Now there is another excellent reason to have top birds even if you decide not to show them. 2 reasons, really.
    1. You get to work with birds who please your eye and are a quality representation of the breed you love.
    "A thing of beauty is a joy forever. " It fills the eye and gladdens the heart.
    2. You become a safety net for the top breeder. Another trusted person who has that strain in case ill fortune befalls that breeder's program and they need to reach out for new blood from their strain.
    Now, join the national Ameraucana Club! It will help show the fancy you are serious about moving on and excelling. And you will have serious access to a whole world of top breeders and breed wisdom.
    Jumping for joy for you!
    Karen
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  10. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    No. no. I am severely pi**ed off at the breeder sold aggie these poor quality genetics. But slamming the breeder by name on the Net is not the answer. All it does is present Aggie as a headhunter. These things happen and it is sad and regretful when they do. However, this is also a two edged sword in any animal breeding. Yes, one can take their case to the Net and raise all kinds of stink. But the other side of the sword is that the top breeders have seen this before ( novices in any animal breeding are a dime a dozen and usually last 5 years, then leave) ...and will be leery of helping someone who is new to a breed and spends time skewering folk who provided them with previous stock. It is very important to understand this. In the animal breeding world it is all about discretion.
    As you get further into it you will discover that no strain is perfect. That every breed has it secrets. But the veteran breeders know that as a whole they are moving the breed forward. That they can work together and work to eliminate the problems and raise the breed up as a whole. This is not knowledge they share with newcomers for the very reason that newcomers often learn for by critiquing faults. Not appreciating virtues. if you ask a newcomer to a breed which of a group of birds is the best one, 9 times out of 10 they will begin reciting faults and tell you this one bird has less faults than the other ,so it is best,

    Sounds good huh? Actually, that kind of judging by fault finding is a mark of being unschooled in a breed.
    It is those judging by fault finding, unschooled in the nuances of the breed, who will race around social media with critical breeding knowledge and skewer those they deem Unworthy for some reason, either human or animal. It causes a lot of problems and is why one must be discrete and work hard to earn the respect which will let them be privy to the "art of breeding" which produces these top birds. Whining won't do it. And when one gains access to this "art of breeding" knowledge, hold it in the same trust as have breeders before. Sharing it with those who have earned the respect to handle the knowledge and shown they will handle it with the honor it deserves.
    What I have just written is quite important. It is not to be gainsaid but ruminated on and considered.
    Start with a top breeder. Honor their trust and hold the knowledge they share in your heart alone as a matter of trust. It is not to be thrown in front of those who have not the wisdom to respect it. Learn from that breeder and be diligent. Seek their counsel for breeding plans and follow thru. Learn how the strain inherits and throw traits. When you think you are ready yo start making your own decision, run them by the breeder and heed his/her counsel. Applaud yourself if you got the proposed breeding right. Learn from it if the breeder counsels you to tweak it one way or another.
    And finally, the top breeder will show you how to evaluate by considering virtues. Without this skill it is almost impossible to excel. Because a top animal is always more than a lack of faults. The other side of the coin to lack of faults is the beauty and symmetry which gives that animals the ability to express the nuances of that breed. That special X factor which makes it truly a top Ameraucana, or collie, or horse, etc.
    The balance of the body, the symmetry which fills the eye and makes you just want to keep looking at the animal again and again. We have all seen creatures like that. They radiate their "breed type" like a shining star. The symmetry of such an animal is such there are no extremes of breed type which interrupt your eye as you follow the animal visually from head to tail, tail to head, side to side, top to bottom. The animal "fits" itself. Its breed type does not struggle against itself to express properness. The various parts of the animal flow uniformly into one another melding to create a wholeness which fills the eye. When one understands balance and symmetry in a properly bred animal, then one can begin to judge by virtue instead of fault. We can add all the proper genetics together to make a proper animal. But it is the art of breeding which engages the nuances of a breed to make great birds. The time tested motto is , in a breed, "All the great ones look alike".

    "All the great ones look alike"
    Best Regards,
    Karen
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016

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