The Hybrid

Discussion in 'Pheasants and Partridge (Chukar)' started by Resolution, Sep 16, 2010.

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  1. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

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    "So, what do I get if I cross such and such with such and such?" Read the letter.


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    "It looks a whole lot like extinction ." Came my reply. Over the next few days I'll extrapolate on this problem and attempt to distinguish what happens when a sterile hybrid is produced versus a fertile hybrid and the role of hybridism in speciation .


    I'll also be discussing the history of hybridism in the domestication of species ( there isn't a single domestic species that isn't of hybrid origin);
    and the difference between hybrids between species versus crosses between domestic breeds.

    Something to mull over in the meantime is this, domesticated species generally lack evolutionary potential. They are not naturally selected by climate, habitat, food and predation, but rather through artificial selection of generally very dubious import .

    As much as I love White Mandarin ducks they are the first to get picked off by owls on my lake. Their genes should not be mixed into the gene pool of non-domestic Mandarin ducks because the level of artificial selection has been so great, the best parts of the naturally selected species have been melted and hacked off.

    Extinction via domestication is what is happening as we speak to a large percentage of the wild species we keep in captivity.

    Hybridism between species and subspecies closely enough related as to produce fertile offspring is one such means to exterminate a species, at least from captivity, forever.

    But let's not be overly simplistic and fall into the trap of non-discussion. There is so much more to learn about hybridization than what people shriek about and bully one another about.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2010
  2. Tony K T

    Tony K T Overrun With Chickens

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    This guy has studied birds in their wild habitat.He has done lots of studies on them and is very knowledgable.He has developed his own feed and now is available.He has put more into pheasants that you could imagine.I am just waiting for him to write a book on pheasants now.He is # 1 in my book.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2010
  3. Choctaw Valley Farm

    Choctaw Valley Farm Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Resolution, If you are so much against CROSS BREEDING and HYBRIDS why did you email a friend of mine and ask him to cross breed all his Pheasants so you could buy the offspring????????????. Now if you would like I can have him forward the email to me so I can post it on here.
     
  4. chrisf

    chrisf Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Charliet called it. I confirm it.........................
     
  5. spectrumranch

    spectrumranch Chillin' With My Peeps

    Resolution has good ideas and theories, altough usually his posts are way over my level of comprehension, and I have not been able to confirm his experience raising most of them.
     
  6. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:Nowhere have I written that I am against crossbreeding. Nor have I written that I am against hybrids. What I have written is that there is much to learn about hybridization, which naturally, should never be confused with crossbreeding.

    Post your fantastic email. I'd love to read it.

    One of the reasons I know something of hybrids especially as it relates to systematics and speciation is because I have made an academic career of studying the subject.
    If you'll be patient, I'll provide all with photodocumentation of hybrids that have occurred in the wild as well as in captivity. Some of you may recall my involvement in the reclassification of the Imperial Pheasant.

    I'm not interested in having a dumb off. Ignore the thread if you are looking for a fight.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2010
  7. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:What is this a peer review? I can't confirm that anyone knows what they are talking about. I trust that they do. It is so often not the case and yet I do not feel in the least slighted for it.
     
  8. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:When two distinct species from respective genera interbreed, their hybrid progeny are generally sterile, save for those monophyletic tribes, for example, the Genuine Pheasant and Grouse subfamily's. Even in the rare exceptions where intergeneric hybrids are partially fertile ( generally the male in bird species), it is even more unusual for subsequent progeny to be produced from the first generation hybrid. Eggs may fertilise but they fail to hatch for instance. Chicks may hatch but perish shortly after. Chicks may develop into adults but lack a gender and so on. There are exceptions and this will be covered in a subsequent discussion on the possible role of hybridization in the formation of species..

    Getting back to the 95% rule of complete sterility of intergeneric hybrids: They can't reproduce.

    Consequently, an intergeneric hybrid is, for all extensive purposes, an evolutionary dead end. It will produce no progeny.


    Many species within the same genus (intrageneric) will produce sterile offspring when hybridized as well. For example, the Reeves Pheasant produces sterile offspring with the Mikado, Copper, Elliot's and Hume's Bar-Tailed Pheasants even though they each share a fairly recent common ancestor and belong to the same genus Syrmaticus .
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    Infertility or reduced fertility can even occur when two different sub-species, that is, two sister populations of the same species, are intercrossed. For example, intercrosses between specific different subspecies of Snowcocks have been shown to generate only partially fertile offspring.
    This is not the case with the genus Phasianus to which our familiar Ring Necked Pheasant belongs. Though there is some evidence of reduced fertility between some intercrosses, between the Formosan Ring Neck and the Chinese Ring Neck for example, the majority of subspecies can and do intercross with ease, producing fully fecund offspring.

    In both these instances, the extinction of at least one of the subspecies is likely. In the Snowcock it boils down tooutbreeding depression , too few founders- leading to too few offspring leading to extinction of the lineage produced through intercross hybridisation.

    In the situation of the Phasianus pheasants, composites of subspecific races results in the extinction of evolutionary novelty of respective geographic forms.

    In the case of the Snowcock, evolutionary potential has been comprised, as the intercrossed progeny experience higher mortality than productivity. They die out. Their progeny are less fit than their parents.

    In the case of the Phasianus pheasants, evolutionary potential has been increased, as the intercrossed progeny are more likely to adapt to a wider range of habitats foreign to either parental form. Nevertheless, the intercrossed Phasianus pheasant is a new composite. It's existence can and does pose a very serious risk for the conservation breeding of the unpolluted lines of subspecies of known provenance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
  9. Choctaw Valley Farm

    Choctaw Valley Farm Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Nowhere have I written that I am against crossbreeding. Nor have I written that I am against hybrids. What I have written is that there is much to learn about hybridization, which naturally, should never be confused with crossbreeding.

    Post your fantastic email. I'd love to read it.

    One of the reasons I know something of hybrids especially as it relates to systematics and speciation is because I have made an academic career of studying the subject.
    If you'll be patient, I'll provide all with photodocumentation of hybrids that have occurred in the wild as well as in captivity. Some of you may recall my involvement in the reclassification of the Imperial Pheasant.

    I'm not interested in having a dumb off.

    Ignore the thread if you are looking for a fight.​

    Well first of all it is not MY fantastic email, You wrote it and sent it to a breeder in Texas. (I will call him tomorrow and see if he will forward it to me)

    And I am not here to fight, But what is a Dumb Off????????​
     
  10. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    The issue that we hear most about in avicultural circles concerns hybrids between species like the Chrysolophus Pheasants- it is difficult to find a captive Golden without Amherst's blood and visa vis. This is also true for Pavo Peafowls. I don't think anyone can remember what an unpolluted Indian even looks like. They likely never knew that a non-crossed Green Peafowl existed.
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    Does this concern me. Yes it does. My reaction to the issue is oblige the keepers of hybrids to produce breed registries.
    As these selective breeding specialists are focused on producing certain mutations of hybrids and are transforming wild species into domestic ones, they are ostensibly removing their hybrid stock from the wild species gene pools. There is no point in breeding new wild material into the stock when there are already so many hybrids clogging up the ethosphere. There can be no excuse breeding domestic breeds into wild species - this direction domestic into wild is the best way to bring a wild captive species to the brink of extinction as we are witnessing with the Indian Blue Peafowl, Golden Pheasant and Red Junglefowl.
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    As selective breeding enthusiasts share common objectives it stands to reason that they should be working in close cooperation with one another, much as we see in the hybrid cat industry . A Savannah cat costs more than the wild ancestral progenitor species by a margin. Consequently, fewer Serval are kept. This is in the interest of the captive Serval population. There is a danger that domestic cat genes may be introduced into the captive Serval population. Fortunately, the cats are of such value, most will be studied exhaustively, including genetic work before being included in conservation breeding. The hybridologists are generating their own industry. They need to organize and distinguish themselves. They also bear the largest burden of responsibility of keeping their artificially selected stocks away from wild progenitive stocks. If they cannot take on this responsibility they deserve the withering attention they receive from the self-proclaimed purists. I've contributed to the hybrid industry. I'm not bragging about it. But the Bronze Spalding is one of the most astonishing creatures I've ever seen. It's art. I have no idea how the master selective breeders have arrived at such a masterpiece and am frankly surprised with how fond I am with it.
    So too is the Yellow Golden a piece of art and the White Chukar, the Silver Philby Rock Partridge.

    Obviously people have the right to keep and maintain these domestic hybrid mutations but they must shoulder the responsibility of keeping stocks entirely separate.
    When one sees a bird described as a "black throated golden" that is actually an Amherst's hybrid (Look for green scaled plumage delineating the upper neck from the breast.)
    you should know that the individual selling that bird is contributing to the problem. That "dark-throated golden", which is actually a crimson eclipse could well end up being bred back to red goldens as the dark throat is described as nothing more than a mutation of the red golden in literature. The average person will believe that the dark throat is a golden and so will end up lumping the stocks together further contaminating the red golden gene pool.
    Moreover, there is evidence that a wild black throated golden may exist in northern Mongolia; further evidence points to amherst golden hybridization at the root of the mutation. We will probably not figure that out any time soon. Irregardless, keep the crimson eclipse away from the dark throat and both away from the red golden.
    This is just common sense as well as decency.
    Having the honour of never polluting the wild species with domestic blood is something few people can guarantee that they have. Having the honour of never perpetuating domestic mutation contaminated wild stock is another thing entirely. Don't do it and let those that do know that they are now on the proverbial chicken poop list.

    In short, if someone picks up some eclipse pheasants ( crossed between amherst's and golden) at a swap meet, they should maintain them as eclipse and only breed the birds with other eclipses, being responsible and respectful enough to never breed the domestic hybrid with either wild parental species. They should create a breed registry or a pedigree for their lineages and encourage the individuals trading birds with them to do the same- and denying them if they refuse.

    That's my opinion.

    and no, I do not produce hybrid cats. I am not a member of the hybrid cat industry nor do I possess a single eclipse pheasant though I certainly have studied more than my share of study skins of them over the years. Don't consider this an endorsement to produce f1 eclipse pheasants please. As they exist, people should do something useful with them and keep them away from the parental species.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
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