Treatment for bacteria: Enterococcus cecorum and Gallibacterium anatis

[linguini]

Help! Just wondering if anyone can provide some info on which medicines we should give to our flock of 7 with moderate bacteria detected in their nasal swap: Enterococcus cecorum and Gallibacterium anatis

Many thanks in advance!!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

First, I am NOT an expert on Poultry Illness and Injury - what I don't know about those subjects would fill books, and does.

Second, a quick glance at the research suggests that Tylosin resistant strains to both e. cecorum and g. anatis are relatively wisdespread, so that's out. One of the things I was reading suggests that e. cecorum still has not developed widespread resistance to the "-cillins" (penicillin, amoxicillin, ampicillin) so I'd be reaching for the vial of Procaine G I keep around as a general purpose go to. I found less information on g. anatis resistances to the -cillins in poultry, specifically, but a test of g. anatis isolated in cattle found it was susceptible to amoxicillin - so there's hope.

Third, do you know the pH of your water? Both species are opportunistic and colonize portions of the digestive tract. There is significant research suggesting more acidic environments help in controlling bacterial load of both (in broiler chicken studies, at least). This is a case where the use of fermented feed, some live yogurt, or (live) ACV addition to water may be beneficial [I don't consider either practice to be a general purpose cure-all]. Your target pH is 6.0 to 6.5. Below 6.0, the antibacterial properties of a lactic acid producing bacteria common in fermented foods drops considerably.

 

[Eggcessive]

Are you dealing with a vet who diagnosed this, or is this from a necropsy that your state vet has diagnosed? Both of those organisms have become resistant to many of the common antibiotics used in the past. I would ask what drugs the vet recommends, since one antibiotic is most likely not going to treat. Here is some reading on both bacteria:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/enterococcosis/enterococcosis-in-poultry

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5799919/

 

[linguini]

First, I am NOT an expert on Poultry Illness and Injury - what I don't know about those subjects would fill books, and does.

Second, a quick glance at the research suggests that Tylosin resistant strains to both e. cecorum and g. anatis are relatively wisdespread, so that's out. One of the things I was reading suggests that e. cecorum still has not developed widespread resistance to the "-cillins" (penicillin, amoxicillin, ampicillin) so I'd be reaching for the vial of Procaine G I keep around as a general purpose go to. I found less information on g. anatis resistances to the -cillins in poultry, specifically, but a test of g. anatis isolated in cattle found it was susceptible to amoxicillin - so there's hope.

Third, do you know the pH of your water? Both species are opportunistic and colonize portions of the digestive tract. There is significant research suggesting more acidic environments help in controlling bacterial load of both (in broiler chicken studies, at least). This is a case where the use of fermented feed, some live yogurt, or (live) ACV addition to water may be beneficial [I don't consider either practice to be a general purpose cure-all]. Your target pH is 6.0 to 6.5. Below 6.0, the antibacterial properties of a lactic acid producing bacteria common in fermented foods drops considerably.

@U_Stormcrow @Eggcessive

Thank you so much for all the info! We can add ACV to their waterer to keep the pH level, and provide probiotic additive to the water. Our chickens do not show any symptoms - the swap test was done due to a sudden death of one of our chicken. USDA was really responsive and thorough. A USDA vet came and swapped the remaining flock and conducted necropsy and thorough lab tests.

Our chicken, Juniper, a beautiful 2 year old blue wyandotte turned out to die of hemorrhage from fat liver disease. And the tests revealed a moderate level of these bacteria.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormcrow @Eggcessive

Thank you so much for all the info! We can add ACV to their waterer to keep the pH level, and provide probiotic additive to the water. Our chickens do not show any symptoms - the swap test was done due to a sudden death of one of our chicken. USDA was really responsive and thorough. A USDA vet came and swapped the remaining flock and conducted necropsy and thorough lab tests.

Our chicken, Juniper, a beautiful 2 year old blue wyandotte turned out to die of hemorrhage from fat liver disease. And the tests revealed a moderate level of these bacteria.

Well, fatty liver suggests something else entire.

I have to ask ('cause its a subject where I do know a few things), what are you feeding them??? (and what were you feeding them previously??)

/edit and find out what the pH of your water is before you add the ACV - too much is a problem. Too little is ineffective. A tiny pack of pool test strips or the like will go bad long before you need them all, but they are (relatively) inexpensive and (relatively) easy to find.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Are you dealing with a vet who diagnosed this, or is this from a necropsy that your state vet has diagnosed? Both of those organisms have become resistant to many of the common antibiotics used in the past. I would ask what drugs the vet recommends, since one antibiotic is most likely not going to treat. Here is some reading on both bacteria:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/enterococcosis/enterococcosis-in-poultry

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5799919/

an actual BYC expert on poultry illness and injury. I'm learning a lot from @Eggcessive .

 

[Kiki]

@U_Stormcrow @Eggcessive

Thank you so much for all the info! We can add ACV to their waterer to keep the pH level, and provide probiotic additive to the water. Our chickens do not show any symptoms - the swap test was done due to a sudden death of one of our chicken. USDA was really responsive and thorough. A USDA vet came and swapped the remaining flock and conducted necropsy and thorough lab tests.

Our chicken, Juniper, a beautiful 2 year old blue wyandotte turned out to die of hemorrhage from fat liver disease. And the tests revealed a moderate level of these bacteria.

Please please take a good look at what you are feeding your flock, if you haven't already.

 

[linguini]

We feed them Flock Raiser (20% protein) with oyster shell on the side. kitchen scraps (mostly vegetable scraps, melon seeds/skins). Early in their youth, before joining BYC, we used to give them meal worm treats, BOSS, daily. But I have learned since from BYC forum to limit the treats - but I think the damage was done when they were young (in the first few months).

They do have quite a large area to roam around. (20x50 in summer, 40-50 in winter) In spring, there were LOTS of earthworms in their yard - I have seen them pulled out 10+ worms in less than 15-20 min. Not sure what more we can do now since we've limited the treats to almost none - only to lure them into the coop when we have to.

Juniper was the fullest one and always the last one to jump up to the perch, probably due to her weight.

 

[Kiki]

We feed them Flock Raiser (20% protein) with oyster shell on the side. kitchen scraps (mostly vegetable scraps, melon seeds/skins). Early in their youth, before joining BYC, we used to give them meal worm treats, BOSS, daily. But I have learned since from BYC forum to limit the treats - but I think the damage was done when they were young (in the first few months).

They do have quite a large area to roam around. (20x50 in summer, 40-50 in winter) In spring, there were LOTS of earthworms in their yard - I have seen them pulled out 10+ worms in less than 15-20 min. Not sure what more we can do now since we've limited the treats to almost none - only to lure them into the coop when we have to.

Juniper was the fullest one and always the last one to jump up to the perch, probably due to her weight.

I highly recommend stopping all treats, including scraps, and only offer the complete balanced poultry feed.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I highly recommend stopping all treats, including scraps, and only offer the complete balanced poultry feed.

Inclined to agree, and yes, early development is very hard to overcome - damage done early on follows them all their lives.

But you know better now, and its a mistake you won't make again! Sorry 'bout your Wyan.