trying to pick a breeding plan- Like everyone else!

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by minister man, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. minister man

    minister man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Hi everyone, I have been researching breeding poultry in a closed flock for some time, and have searched the posts on here about it too. I read all about the rolling maitings, clan matings, flecth breeding charts, spiral matings ect... Then I attempted to design my own varitation taking what I consider the best from all, to create a flock of white leghorns that are simply what I call "Tripple P leghorns" ( Presentable - Look good not necessarily show birds, Practicle- Lay well enough to pay there way, and Pleasing- If I get the first two I will be pleased. I started with some show birds for 2 differnt breeders that both have the same line, and I used some commerical white leghorns to get thier laying up. Now I want to simply conserve what I have. I Asked Dr P Sponenberg from the ALBC what he thought of this plan and he thought it was a Good solution fro back yarders and I would probably need new blood every 10 years of so. So now I am asking you, who breed poultry for a second opinion, or at least your thoughts. Because as far as I know this is orignial, I am afriad to try it, incase I am wrong.

    Here Goes:

    Year one - one pen with 10-12 females
    4 Pens with 2 males in each pen, marked clan 1, 2, 3, 4

    Mate all the females to the clan males "1" mark chicks ( keep 2 best males and 5-6 best females)
    Change males to Clan "2" males mark chicks, ( Keep 2 best males and 5-6 best females)

    Year Two - The females hatched last year replace thier mothers
    Use males Clan 3, same as above
    Use males Clan 4, same as above.

    To me this plan is a paterachal clan mating marking chicks by thier dads. Because the males are used as 2 year olds and the females as pullets, there is the advantage of mixing age and youth. Instead of hold over all the hens through a moult, there are only 4 males held over, keeping costs down. Because the females are used in thier first year and the males in thier second, then there are no parent/ child, sibling, or half sibling matings. I think the closest it could possibly be is uncle/ niece. Technequely one group of males can live with the hens, so There is only a need for 3 male pens. If each year the males are raised together then next years 4 males could all live together until thier turn into the breeding house.

    I am not suggesting that there would be a problem with breeding them in closer realtionship, if the stock was the best of the best to begin with, but because they are a 3 line cross, I would be afraid breeding them close might hold too many suprises.


    So what do you think? I am not a show person. I just want to raise my own eggs, and replacement birds, and would like to keep the flock closed to keep disease out. I know a fellow who brought in a bird, that when the person he purchased it from had some bird deaths the government killed both flocks, because of him purchasing that one bird. Don't want that to happen to me.

    So do you think this plan has any merit? Do you think I can go 10 years without new blood? when I need new blood, I was told to look at the birds and see what they need. If it is looks, use a show male, if it is production, use a commercial male. Which ever I use I would cross with a few of my birds and use the 50% males on the whole flock, does that sound reasonable? Thanks for your time, I am soon going to have to just pick a program and get with it. I am also starting some silkies to hatch with.
     
  2. minister man

    minister man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    no opinions or did i make it to complicated?
     
  3. TK Poultry

    TK Poultry Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 25, 2009
    Greencastle, Indiana
    I personally flock mate. It keeps a natural variety, and it insures to some degree vigorous chicks. I put the best roosters with the best hens and document the parents. Some don't like this method because you cant make duplicates of show winners but I prefer it. It's the least complicated. It takes less thinking.

    You though are not breeding for the next show winner you are breeding for eggs. Are you going to document egg proformance and select for the best or are you just going to keep a steady rate through out the years. I know your goals are to have a nice looking egg layer, but are you improving on anything? Thats what I don't understand I guess. When I make my breeding decisions I have a goal in mind (which I know you do) but mine is usually to improve on a trait. Is that what you are doing? I think that is what I'm not understanding.

    Hope I gave you what you are looking for.
     
  4. minister man

    minister man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thanks for the input. So when you flock mate, how do you document the parents?

    I guess the main reason that I wanted to flock mate with one flock is the convenience of not have so many little pens to feed and clean.

    You pose a good question about goals...... and improvement.....

    I guess I was thinking of first of all maintaining the genetics that I have. I am hoping to use the article on the ALBC site about chosing the best layers and try to breed from the best layers on the female side, and the best looking on the male side. Besides that my only selection standard would be for the leghorns: Male combs must stand, females flop, Yellow legs on both genders, sickle feathers in the males tails, and where possilbe the wide tails on the females. For the Silkies, all black skin, feathers on the toes, crests that hide the eggs of the females, and well shaped purple combs on the males, for visual things, and for production they must set thier own chicks, and hopefully raise them.

    In Rare breeds Canada's book they discribe conservation type breeding as differnt than show breeding in that they cull out any disqualifications, ( ie my list above) and then from the remaining birds chose at random. They go as far as to suggest giving each bird a number and drawing them from a hat! To keep the genetics as Randomly diverse as possible. I kind of thought I might do that. Since I basicly want to keep what I have.

    Does any of this make any scence to anyone? I was begining to think that I was going to get any comments, maybe I am making this too complicated. How do you achieve a flock mating situation, selecting for improvement? How big are your flocks? how many males do you keep?
     
  5. TK Poultry

    TK Poultry Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 25, 2009
    Greencastle, Indiana
    I keep small flocks of 8-12 breeding birds per pen. I give the male a number and the females numbers. I write them down in a note pad. I have one pen per variety (ex. when I have all the varieties of Ameraucanas I want I will have one Buff pen, one BBS pen, and one White pen) I write on the eggs to distiguish all of them apart and I go from there. I select the best offspring to breed to their parents. I may retain a good hen for four or five years though (haven't reached that point, just starting). I want to breed to reinforce traits, and produce show birds consistantly. Your clan idea isn't all that different from my basic show flock breeding idea. I just retain the quality birds longer than you will retain yours. I have no problems line breeding for a few generations and switching out roosters every once in a while. I will eventually keep two roosters per variety. (ex 2 Buffs, 2 BBS, 2 White, 2 d'Uccle, and 2 duck drakes). This will allow me to have some genetic diversity but with show flocks line breeding is your friend IMHO.

    I don't think you made it too complicated, you did elaborate on everything well. Details are important. I think most people practice the basic idea of a situation with one good male and good females. IMO that has flaws too. I look at my best hens and look for roosters to complement them. If I want more muffs I find roosters with all kinds of muffs. If I want darker legs I find a rooster with darker legs. Then I would take those offspring that have more of what I want and breed them together. This reinforces good traits. I think that is what most people over look when they start breeding. Just because the parents are of good quality doesn't mean the offspring will be. They have a greater chance and that is it its just a chance.

    This is my whole idea of breeding. Every year has a new goal (only happened with my ducks). I think your idea is good as well. Just rotating the males in a patriarchal way sounds fine. I like your age "theory" (if that is the right word) I find that very interesting.
     
  6. minister man

    minister man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    So you mark the hens and roosters, but how do you know which hen is the mother? or do you?

    With only one pen per variety, do you add the pullets in with thier mothers the next year? or do you then have two pens, one with the old females and thier son? and one with the pullets with thier dad? or do you just use them all in one pen?


    When you do get to the point that you keep a good hen for 4-5 years, does she get to just hold her spot in the breeding pen of 8-12?

    I guess I am just curious about how many years you can make it work with only one male in the pen. Won't that create a "Genetic Bottle neck"? It sure would be a whole lot less crowing then what I am purposing to do! ( haha)
     
  7. TK Poultry

    TK Poultry Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 25, 2009
    Greencastle, Indiana
    Quote:The downfall to the plan I use is you don't know the mother. I don't have that many so I can usually tell from some of the qualities but its hard to tell.

    Every pullet/hen retained goes into one pen with a related or unrelated rooster depending on which one I decide to use that season. My roosters change from season to season and are sometimes related and sometimes unrelated just depends what I decide.

    If I run across an outstanding hen (which I have) a little pullet that fits that) I'll hold on to her and base my program around the hens and not the roosters. Roosters (of good quality) are easier to come across than a good hen. So I have based the idea around the hens.

    You have a "genetic bottle neck" If you switch the rooster every season or two. I will eventually add one more pen for the varieties then have two lines to switch and things. This method works best for my situation right now.

    I think that is the magic of a "breeding plan" you can mold it around your needs. I think it is a smart choice to evaluate your situation (life, finances, goals) and base your plan on that, not on a textbook concept. This idea is probably not orignal, but this is what I have come up with to fit my needs.

    Do I make any sence.....
     
  8. jelmer

    jelmer Out Of The Brooder

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    May 9, 2009
    You said you are going to breed from pullets dunno if its true but I heard thats bad
     
  9. minister man

    minister man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    your plan makes scense to me. I just didn't understand the first time that you were bringing in unrelated males every couple of years. Besides that, I only have text book knowledge, and I know being an electrician that every thing you do, isn't discribed in the text book. But the pricipals are there. There is knowledge and then there is wisdom. The word wisdom means "to apply the knowledge I have to the situation that I am in. It sounds like you are full of wisdom to me.

    Yes in the plan I discribed I would be using pullets. Most plans discourage the use of pullets because they haven't lived long enough to be tested for longevity and because when you use older birds you can see what there progeny will be like, before you use them as breeders. The longevity in my plan comes from the males who are 2 before they are used, and I haven't figured out a way to solve the other issue. The more I talk about this, the more I think I have the information, I just have to do what greencastle ducks does, find away to mould it to what I can/want to do. After all for me it is only a hobby. Thanks
     
  10. minister man

    minister man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Sep 9, 2010
    New Brunswick
    Opps double post
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010

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