Understanding Splits and Sex-linkage With Lacing Gene

[ColtHandorf]

To set the tableau for my confusion let me begin by saying that I obtained a pair of Silver-laced Orpington chickens. They aren't perfect by any means as their leg, beak, and I suspect skin color as well is incorrect (yellow instead of white) and the rooster has side sprigs. However size and lacing is quite good and as they were the first I'd seen I got them and am breeding them. I've obtained a pullet from another breeder but her legs are dark/slate. Anyway that's beside the point.

With the original pair I set six eggs, all six developed, and five hatched. I was very pleased with their fertility and the chicks all looked like their parents (down to the wrong leg color). A set a second batch of three eggs and hatched three chicks but one of them is clearly Gold-laced rather than Silver and seems to have willow-colored legs to boot. That means the rooster is visually (phenotype) Silver-laced but split to Gold-laced, right? Hens can only be Gold or Silver-laced so she can't be split if I understand.

Now as they are producing Gold-laced chicks does that indicate whether the chick is male or female? Like can they only produce Gold-laced cockerels? And is that cockerel visually Gold but split Silver?

Secondary set of questions:

It is my hope to create Silver-laced Blue, Splash, and Lavender Orpingtons. By crossing a SLO rooster over Blue or Splash hens I'd be introducing the blue gene. For that purpose I'd probably use Splash hens. Same with the Lavenders. What can I expect lacing to look like in the F1 generation? Does crossing the F1 generation of pullets back to their father solidify the lacing? I guess walk me through the best practice for developing these birds. Keep in mind I am very unfamiliar with the names of the genes themselves and if loci and things come up I'll get really confused really quickly. So if we can keep it as simple as we can that would be great. Like I understand Mendel and his peas and Punnet Squares...lol

@The Moonshiner
@nicalandia
@AMERAUCANAS4REAL

 

[The Moonshiner]

For the first part. Yes silver/gold is sex linked. A hen has to be one or the other. A rooster can be one or the other or yes carry both. Silver is dominate over gold so a rooster can appear silver but be split for gold. Usually those that are split will show some yellowing. Its the gold underneath bleeding through slightly.
A rooster can not be gold and split for silver since silver is dominate. If a rooster is gold he is pure for it.
Hens get their gene from their father and pass it to their sons. Roosters pass one of their genes to all offspring.
If yours appear silver but produced a gold then yes the hen is pure and the rooster is split.

The gold chicks will have to be pullets because they got the gold gene from the father.
The father can pass it to a son but the mother would pass silver to the son so he would appear silver so gold has to be female.
Now your concern is that if your pair is producing gold pullets it will also be producing silver/gold male offspring. Like said they usually show some yellow but its not a for sure thing that they will and if they do it usually doesn't show until almost mature.
Did I miss anything?

 

[ColtHandorf]

So the little bird in my hand there is a pullet because genetically my pair cannot produce Gold-laced males if I understood all that? Which is nice because I can visually sex those at hatch.

In regards to the Silver versus Gold-lacing I think you knocked it out of the park. I know you don't have as much experience with the lacing gene (or I believe you said that in one of the threads you were in) are you able to take a stab at the second part in regards to producing Silver-laced birds over another base color than black such as blue or lavender?

 

[The Moonshiner]

Blue will be easier because you can always breed only the blue chicks back to your black silver laced and get about 50% blue offspring. Just keep taking the blue back to the silver lace so the blue is the easy part.
The lacing will be the hard part and why I don't mess with it for crossing.
First there's your e loci or base pattern. Blue is extended black and I believe lace can be partridge or birchen. Either way they're different there. Lacing also takes a combo of genes to be produced.
Don't quote me but I think on partridge it takes 3 other genes but maybe only two others on birchen. When you make the first cross your offspring will have one copy of each gene needed but then they'll have to get the second of each. Of course best route is to breed back to original laced because that will give you one complete set of the genes needed. The offspring that you're breeding back has a 50/50 option for each gene so that's a 50/50 chance at getting a blue chick. 50/50 of getting the needed e loci gene. A 50/50 for columbian. A 50/50 for the pattern gene Pg and 50/50 for Db.
I think that's the genes involved. So not only do you have a 50/50 chance for each of the genes you need a chick that gets the winning side of the 50% for all genes involved.
Does that make sense?
That's just a lot more chicks that need to be hatched and a lot slimmer odds of getting one that gets the right gene in all locations.

With lavender its recessive so you have to breed to make a split and then breed to another split to express the lavender. When doing that you need to breed offspring to offspring so that changes your odds at ever gene from 50% to 25% so you just increased everything which means even more chicks needed hatched and odds of one with every thing just right even slimmer odds.
Someone can clarify and get into the details but that kinda explains it and why I don't mess with laced.

 

[ColtHandorf]

It does make sense. I completely understand why you prefer working with other genotypes that aren't as sticky...lol It doesn't seem overly complicated, but it does seem like you need to produce a lot of chicks in order to get the genes to align correctly and all in the same bird. if you had to guess, how many generations would you say it would take to get a truly Silver-laced bird on a Blue or Lavender base? Additionally, do you see lacing in the F1 generation? Is it incomplete I guess? That's why I asked how many generations it takes to get back to lacing as defined as the parent birds.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Like I said I don't do it so I don't know. I do believe I heard it would produce incomplete lacing.
In theory you could get everything worked out with your 2nd generation. F1s crossed back to parent in blues or F1s together for lavenders. But the question is how many birds would you need to hatch to get that lucky.
I've done crosses where the odds were simple like 1 in 16 and got what I need with a dozen chicks hatched but then again I've got one project like that that I've hatched over 100 in two years and haven't gotten one yet.
Its really not like omg it won't work just a d@mn that might take a lot of chicks and for me working with a dozen projects at a time I have to be realistic about is it what I want to do right now because of the numbers game and limited brooders/grow out pens/ $ for feed etc. etc. You know?

 

[ColtHandorf]

I understand that completely. How frustrating to be waiting for something and not get it in over two years. That would drive me nuts...lol

 

[The Moonshiner]

Ha ha. Ya sometimes it does. On the other hand though just like you. You get an idea. Work through all the details breed some birds. Wait for those chicks to grow up then breed them and then one day you pop open the incubator and see that chick you put so much into right there in front of you. That's pretty incredible for real. Of course its a roller coaster to get there but its worth it in the end.

 

[The Moonshiner]

I had to go check your odds with the chicken calculator.
It does show two different silver laced and when crossing F1s back to patent laced one shows 1/64 odds and the other shows 1/128 odds so that's better then I thought it would be.
I say go for it. May take a couple or three years but like they say. Rome wasn't built in a day. So guess we shouldn't expect a chicken empire to be either.

 

[Amer]

For the first part. Yes silver/gold is sex linked. A hen has to be one or the other. A rooster can be one or the other or yes carry both. Silver is dominate over gold so a rooster can appear silver but be split for gold. Usually those that are split will show some yellowing. Its the gold underneath bleeding through slightly.
A rooster can not be gold and split for silver since silver is dominate. If a rooster is gold he is pure for it.
Hens get their gene from their father and pass it to their sons. Roosters pass one of their genes to all offspring.
If yours appear silver but produced a gold then yes the hen is pure and the rooster is split.

The gold chicks will have to be pullets because they got the gold gene from the father.
The father can pass it to a son but the mother would pass silver to the son so he would appear silver so gold has to be female.
Now your concern is that if your pair is producing gold pullets it will also be producing silver/gold male offspring. Like said they usually show some yellow but its not a for sure thing that they will and if they do it usually doesn't show until almost mature.
Did I miss anything?

X2 on Moonshiner. I honestly can't tell you more than he can.