We need to talk about genetic safety in imported breeds

call ducks

silver appleyard addict
13 Years
Mar 4, 2009
4,260
71
376
waterville , canada
Hey Folks,

First i am not an expert in genetics, but i am learning fast.. After a phone call with a great breeder friend we got talking about the genetic strength of these imported breeds. And if we can not do ennough to preserve North American breeds, and the breeds we have now should we really be importing more breeds?

Let me start by saying if you are really willing to breed these imported breeds good for ya! I do not mean to say that importing breeds is bad, i am not saying it is good ether. i well start with explaining now.

When these breeds are imported upwards of 20 birds maybe imported sounds like a lot yes? While it could be a starting point for the breed in North America it seems as if everyone is thinking more momentary and not geneticly, from my observation people grab the newly imported breed, "breed" them and sell them for XX ammount for a year once the market comes flooded they move on to the next breed, not preserving the breed and deficiently not helping it. We have lost focus in NA for the most part. We breed to reproduce the orginal, and most never do any selecting or do not hatch large ennough numbers to keep the limited number of genetics going. When you start with such a small number of chickens hatching 10,15,50,100 chicks a year is simply not enough! Think about it this way, if there was only 100 highland cattle left in the world we would want to breed the most we could from those hundred cows in order to get the most genetics from them right? Chickens are no different really. Susstanin these genetics with say 100 breeders hatching 50 chicks to select the best 5 to breed for the next year is not fesable. That would be like driving your car off a cliff. The genetics in these breeds you know those genetics that allow those breeds to lay large eggs, have a great dressing weight large breasts are gone with in 10 generations with out selecting (ok that can differ but my point is with out selection we lose traits FAST). And hatching only 100 chicks to keep 10 does not allow you to select for traits. If we want these breeds to stick around with there great traits we need people who are welling to hatch 300-500+ chicks and then select the best 70, with traits that are disrable, and even traits that may not seem like they are needed this year. We need breeders who are welling to weigh the chicks every week keep detailed records from hatch to cull (or death). Importing new genetics is simply not the correct answer because this well not solve anything it well just give it a tempory boost.

I have seen this happen in many breeds, Delawere (sp?), Rhode Island Red, Black Australorp, Orpginton, Dorking, Sussex, Wyandotte, New Hampsire. There are different digrees to what this has happened to though for each breed and strain. Don't belive that this took place try locating a great dual puropse Sussex, or Dorking they simple do not exist any more (though great efforts and time are being spent to restore these breeds).

Any way point is we need to start hatching LOTS and LOTS of chicks out if we do not want these imported breeds to be a flop. And breeding to new lines is not allways the answer. We as poultry breeders need to rethink the way we breed our birds. We need to stop producing chicks and selecting for traits, selecting for the shape, keel, egg laying, egg size and more! Just one generation of hatching large numbers and culling down to only your best can boost egg weight, keel depth. I have seen it done i know that hatching large numbers of chicks is better then hatching small numbers of chicks. With large numbers of chicks you get to see a great range of genetics that may have been hidden in the past generation. You get to look at all the colours of the rainbow rather then just one or two colours.


So maybe my wording sucked, but i think i still got the point across? Numbers, Numbers Numbers! In order to keep these breeds the way we see them now. We must not think about these chicks, eggs, what ever as mometry source, and think about them as genetic banks that they are :D

-Cheers

a bit to chew and think on. What are your opions?
 
Hi call ducks--

I appreciate the interesting view that you expressed.

I'm not sure of a couple of things for the back yard chicken owner. A true breeder may in all liklihood follow exactly the plan that you have outlined.... Hatch three-hundred to five-hundred and keep only 70. Therefore they would cull very "agressively". I think maybe that is a mark of someone who is working very hard to improve a particular breed.

For many people the feasability of even 70 doesn't work, much less hatch and feed and care for hundreds. In a book I had read, they say that when your chicken population reaches 100 -- chickens are a full time job. Many people have other full time jobs......so full time chicken care is displaced by other things.

I know that in endangered species the gene pools are very carefully tracked. I used to be a member of the San Diego, CA Wild Animal Park and they work very hard to promote and protect endangered wildlife.

I'm thinking that there could be a small scale approach were someone works to improve a breed, but it would happen more slowly. It would also take careful selection, but there would be benefits of a small scale operation too IMO.

It will be so interesting to hear what others add to this discussion!
 
I agree with many of the points you have stated. There are many people out there that seem to breed just for the money (and not just in poultry either). It's quite a shame that these people call themselves "breeders" in the first place, when really they are just "propagators" . There is a local lady here that "breeds" Shi-Tsu dogs. She doesn't select the parents, doesn't cull the ones with defects, and doesn't do anything to improve them. They just run around in the same room reproducing and she sells the puppies. Consequently, the dogs she sells have joint problems in their front legs. If anyone is going to "breed" anything, then they should at least do their job to maintain what genetic qualities their stock has or try to improve it. On the other end of the spectrum, I have a friend who lives on a dairy farm. They raise and breed Ayrshire cattle. And when I say "breed" I'm using the true meaning of the word. They select the best sires for their cattle so that their future generations have great udder qualities and conformation. Also, they have their cattle frequently scored so they know who is lacking or more superior in what area. Anyone who knows dairy cattle also knows that these characteristics are indicative of good production.

I can't remember where I had read it, but it was some kind of poultry literature that I had read about the Rule of Ten: Hatch ten birds to get one 'ok' specimen. Hatch a hundred birds to get one 'decent' specimen. Hatch a thousand birds to get one 'excellent' specimen. Something of that accord. If more people followed this rule then I believe there would be much improvement.
 
Last edited:
year of the rooster

very good observations, and yes...the term 'breeder' doesn't have a qualification, as it should. Your example of both ends of the spectrum is excellent.

( we raise registered Beefmaster cattle here, and we have seen some great improvements, that have taken 7-8 years.... but cattle take a lot longer than chickens so I'm sure improvements in a breed wouldn't take a decade...or maybe they would.)

How sad about the dogs, and it goes beyond 'buyer beware'. I guess whenever there is money involved there will be unscrupulous people trying to take advantage of the situation.
 
Just because a person has the space or ability to raise hundreds of chicks a year, does NOT make them a breeder in the sense of the word. With that many chickens on hand, the matter of culling comes a lot sooner than if you had a smaller flock. A smaller and more manageable size flock, will give you time to learn what to look for as the birds age, good and bad qualities. With 100 or more birds, the individual attention drops drastically, and while you may cull quickly for obvious DQs and faults, you won't have the time to see them mature, to know what type of breeding you may need to do next time to improve. Now I'm not saying that is the case with all large breeders for sure! There are some that do breed on a large scale, with the breed improvement in mind, and more power to them! I am sick of seeing the mediocre stock being imported and sold for mega bucks, only to go on to perpetuate more mediocrity. That is NOT breeding in my book, that is a chicken factory! Then it's onto the next chicken craze or fancy the next year. While some have the money to import rarer breeds, well that's good. But to sell them when they don't know how they will produce down the road, to me, that's not breeding, that is hatchery ethics. Just my opinion, and I do see where you are coming from. It is just not a feasible task for most of us, nor does bigger necessarily mean better in this case.
 
Last edited:
I have a lot of questions about this also, I am considering imports , reason: the stock of that breed is almost non existant..they fell into such decline..A lot to think about..In europe a lot of distinct interesting breeds went extinct due to 2 world wars..quite a while ago we posted a very old poultry book with photos drawing ect..of breeds that no longer exist but were going strong when the book was written..... its really sad to see page after page of birds that would have to be re-created, which a few european breeders are trying to bring them back from scratch...In america the decline in american breeds happened when americans left the farm for the work force, it is hard to keep a real breeding farm and work full time , pay bills and raise kids thou some do quite well AT IT..most couldnt keep it going, only a handful of small breeders who had a passion kept some going, the convinience of driving through KFC made americans more disconnected from thier food sorce..I have freinds that act like chicken grows under plastic wrap at the grocery store..
Ray connor who has champion australorps in australia 17 time sidney royal show champion has never owned more than 30 breeding birds at any one time, but he is considered a master breeder and can work in a smaller number of birds to get what he wants..in some breeds the problems might be bigger and need large numbers to work in..
There is a lot to think about, Im having a hard time finding a few things Im looking for..may have to look across the pond..its a lot of work and foreign birds may not have any inherited immunity to common virus bacterium in america so losses in some cases could be prety big. I d.ont know, Its a lot to think about.

during the 40s and 50s old timers told me they would see up to 50 birds in an australorp class, now your lucky if you see 3 to 5. ...8 to 10 is a banner day.
 
Last edited:
Trust me by hatching only a limited number of chicks only gives you a limited amount of genetics to work with! So if 100 people hatch 30 chicks and have 3 "decent" chickens the gentics they have to work with just decresed the ammount of genetics you are able to work with because you only saw a limited ammount of them from the parents. And then you don't have much to select for anything from. Do you want a meaty bird select for a nice keel and good width to the hen/cock.

as for hatching the large ammount of chicks. You could do it thought the year 30 chicks a month is not a lot is it?
 
I have a lot of questions about this also, I am considering imports , reason: the stock of that breed is almost non existant..they fell into such decline..A lot to think about..In europe a lot of distinct interesting breeds went extinct due to 2 world wars..quite a while ago we posted a very old poultry book with photos drawing ect..of breeds that no longer exist but were going strong when the book was written..... its really sad to see page after page of birds that would have to be re-created, which a few european breeders are trying to bring them back from scratch...In america the decline in american breeds happened when americans left the farm for the work force, it is hard to keep a real breeding farm and work full time , pay bills and raise kids thou some do quite well AT IT..most couldnt keep it going, only a handful of small breeders who had a passion kept some going, the convinience of driving through KFC made americans more disconnected from thier food sorce..I have freinds that act like chicken grows under plastic wrap at the grocery store..
Ray connor who has champion australorps in australia 17 time sidney royal show champion has never owned more than 30 breeding birds at any one time, but he is considered a master breeder and can work in a smaller number of birds to get what he wants..in some breeds the problems might be bigger and need large numbers to work in..
There is a lot to think about, Im having a hard time finding a few things Im looking for..may have to look across the pond..its a lot of work and foreign birds may not have any inherited immunity to common virus bacterium in america so losses in some cases could be prety big. I d.ont know, Its a lot to think about.

during the 40s and 50s old timers told me they would see up to 50 birds in an australorp class, now your lucky if you see 3 to 5. ...8 to 10 is a banner day.
That is so interesting aveca! So Ray Connor has a program where he can produce champions with 30 breeding birds. That should be an inspiration in a lot of ways for small-scale breeders. I think Debbi brings up some good points too. At what point can it be determined if the chick has the desired qualities in many cases? -- I have also seen breeders of cattle with very small operations have prize winning registered animals. One breeder I spoke with said the secret is to cull very hard to the desired standards.

Not to reduce what the OP is saying. -->I think both approaches would work, and Sydney Royal Show Champion 17-times is nothing to sneeze at.
 
Last edited:
i know 17 time sydney royal champion is unheard of..he started with high quality birds and worked on his own to acheive exactly what in his mind was the perfect australorp..his average no of birds owned of that breed is 25.. 30 is a lot for him to have in a year..he does breed up more than that , but mid year hes down to 25..he does have other breeds as well like a few orps and plymoth rock...but his focus is australorp..one year one of his freinds said...give me your third worst culls and i will come back and beat you with their offspring in three years..he did just that too..but he was another master breeder , if you have decent stock , people like that can coax the best out of it..i posted a vidio made by abcnews australia.. about ray connors and his birds and awards , how generous he is to people ect...good things happen to good people..
d
ifferent breeds exhibit qualities at different ages, some you can kind of tell very soon that ones going to be special, just wait to see how they feather out..some mature so slowly that yu need a good year befor making any decisions..the obvious faults like side sprigs wrong color those things make culling some early on easier the rest you watch for while..
 
Last edited:
Thank you. I will look for the video.

Starting with good stock, knowing what will bring out the traits that you are aiming for, having a clear vision (as he has) are all essential. Amazing that his 3rd level culls were good enough to come back and become winners too. Part of the fascination of chickens.
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom