WE'RE STUMPED, PLEASE HELP! Chicken foot scabs & bumps... (with photos)

[erinnire]

This is going to be a long one, but bear with me. I want to be sure to include every ounce of information that I can in order to figure out what the heck is going on!!!!

Okay. So, I came across information about bumblefoot ages ago when trying to figure out what was wrong with one of our chickens. About a week later I happened to notice a large bumblefoot scab on the foot of our Rhode Island Red. Naturally I freaked out because I had read that it can be fatal if left untreated, so I checked the rest of the flock and found one other chicken (Barred Rock) with a small/medium size scab on one foot and a tiny little scab on her other foot.

I got everything I needed to soak their feet at Tractor Supply, including Erythromycin that I got from a pet supply store that is intended to be used for fish ulcers. I'd read about Tricide Neo but the price tag was a bit high at that point for me to justify.

After probably 2 weeks of soaking every other day, spraying the scabs with Banixx, and wrapping them up with neosporin, gauze, and vetwrap, there wasn't a TON of improvement with either chicken. The tiny scab on the Barred Rock had migrated off of the foot, and I was satisfied that it was healed, but other than that there was no noticeable changes.

As for the behavior of the chickens, neither of them were limping or sitting for long periods of time, and there were absolutely no physical symptoms other than the scab to be seen with either of them (and there still aren't any, although it is bitter cold now so they don't elect to go out of the coop very much).

After 3 weeks, we decided to bite the bullet and actually perform the removal surgery on our RIR because her scab is quite large and there was a boil-like bump that was beginning to form on the top of her foot. It was horrible and I felt so guilty for taking a scalpel to her foot, and in the end we couldn't find a kernel. It was just healthy pink flesh underneath the skin and not the cheesy/waxy substance that most people report. I tried to gently poke around, but there was some blood that was making it hard for me to see what was going on, and I really didn't want to prolong things any more than I had to, so we slathered the wound with neosporin and wrapped it well.

She was limping a tiny tiny bit for the rest of the day, and for the next day, which is to be expected, but she was still scratching at the dirt and walking around as she always does so we figured that she was alright. We continued to bring her inside to soak her foot and change her bandage every other day, but we're basically back to square one at this point.

My mom bought some Tricide Neo because we're really at our wits end, and we're day 4 into soaking her foot in that, but there is again no discernible difference. The boil-like thing in between her toes looks like a really gnarly pimple at this point, and there has been a white spot that has only gotten more and more pronounced. It's kind of hard, but looks sensitive.

My mom talked to a vet that she works with, and she recommended that we perform the surgery (which is why we did just that, but that didn't quite pan out) and we don't have an avian vet or farm vet near us, so we're just stumped. The chicken is eating normally, behaving normally, and has no limp. The scab on the bottom of the foot isn't super hot, and isn't super red which I would expect to find if it was infected.

I have seen a mite or 2 crawling on her leg, and I've added a dust bath with a bit of diatomaceous earth and I haven't seen a mite in probably 3 weeks or so, so I'm not sure that the issues are related. I just need to get a better understanding of what exactly is going on, and what (if anything) we should do. I've added all the pictures I have below, and I've dated them so you can see the progression. I have photos of what I removed with the surgery, so I've included that as well.

No idea is a bad idea, and I'm sure anything will be helpful at this point. I just want to make sure she is alright, and I'm nervous that I'm over-treating a problem and putting her through something that she doesn't need to be subjected to

Day 1: October 24; This was before we soaked her foot, so it's really dirty (oops). This is the gnarliest scab of the bunch by a pretty wide margin.

October 25; after soaking in epsom salt and warm water and wrapping the scab with neosporin. Obviously no difference in appearance, apart from the fact that it is cleaner and I was able to take a better picture.

This is her other foot on the same day.

November 7; We had been repeating the process of soaking her feet in Erithromycin and warm water and wrapping them with neosporin for about 2 weeks at this point, and decided to do the surgery. Unfortunately I haven't been the best with keeping up with photo documentation, and was very nervous to actually perform the surgery so it totally slipped my mind to take photos of her foot before and after. But this is essentially just the scab that we removed. like I said, there was absolutely no kernel to be found, and it was just your typical pink healthy footpad flesh underneath.

We were trying to press down on the boil-like bump between her toes to see if anything was going to pop out and come through to the bottom of the foot, but there was nothing.

November 20; Day 1 of Tricide Neo treatment. This is after the surgery, but her foot looks the same as the very first day. Urgh.

This is the bump on the top of her foot.

I'll update with pictures tomorrow, we're now on day 3 of the Tricide Neo soaks (we skipped on Thanksgiving) and it really doesn't look much different than what you see here.

She has gotten used to the process for the most part, and will sit calmly with her feet in the solution as we feed her snacks. Even so, I don't want to keep dislodging her from the perch every evening to soak her feet if there is no need.

Thanks so much for reading! I know this was a long one, and I really appreciate any tips or bits of insight that you may have to provide!

 

[staceyj]

This is going to be a long one, but bear with me. I want to be sure to include every ounce of information that I can in order to figure out what the heck is going on!!!!

Okay. So, I came across information about bumblefoot ages ago when trying to figure out what was wrong with one of our chickens. About a week later I happened to notice a large bumblefoot scab on the foot of our Rhode Island Red. Naturally I freaked out because I had read that it can be fatal if left untreated, so I checked the rest of the flock and found one other chicken (Barred Rock) with a small/medium size scab on one foot and a tiny little scab on her other foot.

I got everything I needed to soak their feet at Tractor Supply, including Erythromycin that I got from a pet supply store that is intended to be used for fish ulcers. I'd read about Tricide Neo but the price tag was a bit high at that point for me to justify.

After probably 2 weeks of soaking every other day, spraying the scabs with Banixx, and wrapping them up with neosporin, gauze, and vetwrap, there wasn't a TON of improvement with either chicken. The tiny scab on the Barred Rock had migrated off of the foot, and I was satisfied that it was healed, but other than that there was no noticeable changes.

As for the behavior of the chickens, neither of them were limping or sitting for long periods of time, and there were absolutely no physical symptoms other than the scab to be seen with either of them (and there still aren't any, although it is bitter cold now so they don't elect to go out of the coop very much).

After 3 weeks, we decided to bite the bullet and actually perform the removal surgery on our RIR because her scab is quite large and there was a boil-like bump that was beginning to form on the top of her foot. It was horrible and I felt so guilty for taking a scalpel to her foot, and in the end we couldn't find a kernel. It was just healthy pink flesh underneath the skin and not the cheesy/waxy substance that most people report. I tried to gently poke around, but there was some blood that was making it hard for me to see what was going on, and I really didn't want to prolong things any more than I had to, so we slathered the wound with neosporin and wrapped it well.

She was limping a tiny tiny bit for the rest of the day, and for the next day, which is to be expected, but she was still scratching at the dirt and walking around as she always does so we figured that she was alright. We continued to bring her inside to soak her foot and change her bandage every other day, but we're basically back to square one at this point.

My mom bought some Tricide Neo because we're really at our wits end, and we're day 4 into soaking her foot in that, but there is again no discernible difference. The boil-like thing in between her toes looks like a really gnarly pimple at this point, and there has been a white spot that has only gotten more and more pronounced. It's kind of hard, but looks sensitive.

My mom talked to a vet that she works with, and she recommended that we perform the surgery (which is why we did just that, but that didn't quite pan out) and we don't have an avian vet or farm vet near us, so we're just stumped. The chicken is eating normally, behaving normally, and has no limp. The scab on the bottom of the foot isn't super hot, and isn't super red which I would expect to find if it was infected.

I have seen a mite or 2 crawling on her leg, and I've added a dust bath with a bit of diatomaceous earth and I haven't seen a mite in probably 3 weeks or so, so I'm not sure that the issues are related. I just need to get a better understanding of what exactly is going on, and what (if anything) we should do. I've added all the pictures I have below, and I've dated them so you can see the progression. I have photos of what I removed with the surgery, so I've included that as well.

No idea is a bad idea, and I'm sure anything will be helpful at this point. I just want to make sure she is alright, and I'm nervous that I'm over-treating a problem and putting her through something that she doesn't need to be subjected to

Day 1: October 24; This was before we soaked her foot, so it's really dirty (oops). This is the gnarliest scab of the bunch by a pretty wide margin.

View attachment 1599078

October 25; after soaking in epsom salt and warm water and wrapping the scab with neosporin. Obviously no difference in appearance, apart from the fact that it is cleaner and I was able to take a better picture.

View attachment 1599081

This is her other foot on the same day.

View attachment 1599082

November 7; We had been repeating the process of soaking her feet in Erithromycin and warm water and wrapping them with neosporin for about 2 weeks at this point, and decided to do the surgery. Unfortunately I haven't been the best with keeping up with photo documentation, and was very nervous to actually perform the surgery so it totally slipped my mind to take photos of her foot before and after. But this is essentially just the scab that we removed. like I said, there was absolutely no kernel to be found, and it was just your typical pink healthy footpad flesh underneath.

We were trying to press down on the boil-like bump between her toes to see if anything was going to pop out and come through to the bottom of the foot, but there was nothing.


View attachment 1599085
November 20; Day 1 of Tricide Neo treatment. This is after the surgery, but her foot looks the same as the very first day. Urgh.

View attachment 1599089

This is the bump on the top of her foot.

View attachment 1599090

I'll update with pictures tomorrow, we're now on day 3 of the Tricide Neo soaks (we skipped on Thanksgiving) and it really doesn't look much different than what you see here.

She has gotten used to the process for the most part, and will sit calmly with her feet in the solution as we feed her snacks. Even so, I don't want to keep dislodging her from the perch every evening to soak her feet if there is no need.

View attachment 1599094


Thanks so much for reading! I know this was a long one, and I really appreciate any tips or bits of insight that you may have to provide!

Following. Two initial comments.

DE will not get rid of the mites.
If you see them you need to aggressively treat for them. Both birds and coop.
Permethrin fly spray for horses is effective and cheap.

Also that boil on the top of the foot is painful because it’s full of infection and needs to be opened and cleaned out.

The infection on the bottom of the foot has traveled UP to there.

 

[staceyj]

Hard to know which direction to go with this.
Since you started the Tricide Neo, you may want to go at least 5-7 days with it to see if there is any improvement.

I do agree that you more than likely need to re-do the surgery on the bottom of the foot. The Bumble on the top of the foot look like you can see the pus - it would be a good idea to get that pus out.
Since your Mom works with a vet, can she take photos or the hen with her to work and ask for further opinion/assistance?

I was thinking this as well.
What I think you need is a penrose drain from the vet and some suture material on a needle.
*The non-absorbable kind.

This summer I had a welsummer with an invasive bumble presenting both topside and bottom. She is challenged with them frequently and so is her sister even though my other birds have NEVER had even one.

My treatment of them is constantly evolving.

On this event this is what I did:

After soaking and scrubbing the entire leg with hibiclens, I wrapped up my chicken burrito style.

Out of desperation, I was substituting a large wide rubberband cut flat into a strip of rubber for the penrose.
The purpose of a drain is to let a channel shaped wound heal slowly, from the inside and ALLOW(edited here) the infectious liquid matter inside the wound to escape or be flushed out rather than the exit wounds close prematurely and trap that festering goo inside.

I cut the boil on the top with a scalpel then reamed UP from the wound on the bottom.

I debrided the inside of the wound vigorously with a small piece of gauze soaked in hibiclens which I held with small straight Kelly forceps to loosen the pus away from the inside of the wound bed.

Then I flushed the wound many times with a betadine solution.

Then I inserted my “drain”.
And tied the little tails together so that it was now reconnected and would stay in place. Think of it like inserting a “hoop” earring through a pierced ear.

Here’s an example of how I prepared my drain

Next I filled a 3 cc syringe about halfway with vetericyn antimicrobial spray gel and from the bottom of the wound, filled the wound until it was spilling out the top.

Finally I padded the bottom of the foot with a piece of gauze and also a small piece at the top and wrapped the whole thing with vet wrap.

Here is a completely unprofessional video I made some time ago to explain how to wrap a chickens foot.
If you struggle with this it may help. If not, it’ll provide you with a few minutes of entertainment.
Try not to laugh at me too hard though, I didn’t have anyone to help me. I’m a hot mess. But it gives you an idea at least.

I left the foot alone for a few days *2, I think, before unwrapping and repeating the flushing and filling of the wound.

It’s also important to gently displace the drain to discourage it from anchoring (meaning wiggle it, so it doesn’t get stuck to healing flesh )

The next time I think I left it alone for 3 days, and continued in this schedule to allow healing in between messing with it.

All together I left the drain in for a full week to ten days. ... more than a week- I wish I’d documented it.

After I removed the drain - I just cut it and pulled it out-, I continued to flush and fill the wound for roughly another week until the wound channel closed on its own.

I have to say it healed even better than I’d hoped and I am quite sold on that product I used.
It’s darn expensive but I feel worth it.
If you couldn’t get it I’d do the exact same procedure with antibiotic ointment inside the wound channel.

where does it talk about mites. I think that was meant for a different post.

it was way down in the original post.
I mentioned it because a bird fighting an infection is not in optimal health, therefore fighting parasites at the same time could complicate the situation because parasites are opportunistic.

 

[staceyj]

I’m just here to humbly suggest that you
DON’T wait to
1. Pop that topside boil and
2. Get that scab off the bottom.

Your efforts with the tricideneo soak will be MUCH
more effective if you remove these barriers and expose the infected tissue to the antibiotic.

 

[micstrachan]

Gosh, I don’t know why the scab has returned, but I would keep at it and remove it again. Can you do that and post a photo? The bump on top is s concern to me. I’m wondering if it might be good to try a drawing salve on it? Looking forward to reading more responses.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Hard to know which direction to go with this.
Since you started the Tricide Neo, you may want to go at least 5-7 days with it to see if there is any improvement.

I do agree that you more than likely need to re-do the surgery on the bottom of the foot. The Bumble on the top of the foot look like you can see the pus - it would be a good idea to get that pus out.
Since your Mom works with a vet, can she take photos or the hen with her to work and ask for further opinion/assistance?

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I have seen a mite or 2 crawling on her leg, and I've added a dust bath with a bit of diatomaceous earth and I haven't seen a mite in probably 3 weeks or so, so I'm not sure that the issues are related.

where does it talk about mites. I think that was meant for a different post.

@ejtrout31 in the first post, the OP does mention seeing a mite or two.
I agree with @staceyj that DE is not effective for an external parasite infestation, it is best to re-check the hens and treat with a Permethrin based poultry spray or dust.
fwiw - mite/lice infestation will not help the situation, can irritate the bird and in severe cases of mites can weaken the bird/cause anemia, but will not cause Bumblefoot.

 

[coach723]

I agree with @staceyj that it's spread to the top of the foot and it all needs to be cleaned out well. If you have a vet that can assist that would be best, as always. I've been dealing with a very stubborn case for some time and it spread to the ankle, I lanced the ankle to clean it out and when flushing the ankle the solution came out the bottom of the foot, so that's how it can tunnel through tissue. Some infections are more ribbon/string like through the foot rather than a compact kernal, which is what I've been dealing with. I had tried tricide neo, amoxicillin, penicillin and enrofloxacin, all with no improvement. I put him on SMZ-TMP (sulfa) orally every 12 hours, with a few drops of enrofloxacin oral solution in the wounds, and finally saw some improvement. The sulfa was very hard on his gut so I had to reduce the dose to complete 10 days, then I put him on cephalexin for 6 days every 6 hours and the improvement is much better. He's now on a low dose of sulfa again for a while, low enough that he's tolerating it well. I had reached the point where it was going to be necessary to cull if it wasn't stopped, so threw the kitchen sink at it, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point as swelling is gone, and it doesn't appear to be making pus anymore. I also use sugardine/honey poultices with every dressing change on the wounds/lesions, they help inhibit growth of bacteria.

where does it talk about mites. I think that was meant for a different post.

In the first post, mites were found on the bird in question. Mites will often find a bird that is affected by something else.

 

[micstrachan]

Oh, and I forgot to say what a good girl she is patiently soaking!

 

[Ninjasquirrel]

I would think you didnt get all the pus out. You need to be absolutely sure its all out and cleaned out well. I hate to say it because id hate for your bird to go through surgery again but i dont think theres another option especially since the infection is spreading. I hope she gets better. Sending love and prayers your way. Good luck!