What will I get out of these?

Discussion in 'Peafowl' started by CORNISH_MAN, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. CORNISH_MAN

    CORNISH_MAN Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Purple Blk Shoulder split to white cock X IB Pied hen

    Purple Blk Shoulder split to white cock X IB Pied White Eyed hen

    Purple Blk Shoulder split to white cock X IB Silver Pied hen


    Ive got this Cock and not sure which I want to breed him to. I had a Purple Silver Pied hen for him but lost her. Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  2. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:I can do this for you, but I have some questions on your second hen.

    (#1)
    1/8 White split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 IB Pied split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 IB split to Purple, White and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 IB split to Purple, Pied and Blk Shoulder SONS

    1/8 Purple White split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS (they'll look white, but genetically they'll also be Purple, and split to Blk Shoulder)
    1/8 Purple Pied split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple split to White and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple split to Pied and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS

    (#2)
    When you say "Pied White-Eyed", how is that different (genetically) from what you are calling Silver-Pied? Is the bird Dark Pied or "regular" Pied? Dark Pied has white flights and a white throat patch, and genetically it has two copies of the Pied gene. "Regular" or "Loud" Pied has patches of white, and genetically it has one copy of the Pied gene and one copy of the White gene. Then there's the White-Eyed gene -- do you know if the hen has one (Single-Factor) or two (Double-Factor) copies of the gene? Deerman told me how to tell apart males with one or two copies, but didn't say anything about hens, so I don't know what to tell you. I could plot out every possibility, but that would probably be confusing. Please reply with as much information regarding this hen as you can. If you don't know exactly what she has, do you know what her parents were?

    (#3)
    1/8 IB Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple, Blk Shoulder and Pied SONS
    1/8 IB Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 IB Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple, Blk Shoulder and White SONS
    1/8 White Single-Factor White Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS (they'll look white, but genetically they'll also have one copy each of White-Eyed, Purple and Blk Shoulder)

    1/8 Purple Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder and Pied DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder and White DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS (they'll look white, but genetically they'll also be Purple and split to Blk Shoulder)




    If that's confusing, please let me know.

    [​IMG]


    ETA -- ACK...I noticed I made a mistake....corrected now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  3. Arbor

    Arbor Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Aquaeyes - I think that pied white eyed is pied with one copy of the white eyed gene? I have seen photos of pied birds with the white eyes, and they don't seem to have nearly as much white on them as a silver pied.
     
  4. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:OK, so we're thinking that genetically, "Pied White-Eyed" would be 1 Pied, 1 White, 1 White-Eyed genes? What if a bird has 2 Pied and 2 White-Eyed genes? Is there a "common" name for that that's different from a bird that has 2 Pied and 1 White-Eyed genes?

    Deerman said that in males, the difference is in how many ocelli are white -- most or all = Double-Factor White-Eye, while few to less-than-half = Single-Factor White-Eye. But no one mentioned how to tell the difference in females.

    When the OP writes back and says what she is, I can continue with the second hen. It'd also probably be easier for others to figure out what she is if the OP posts a pic of the second hen.

    [​IMG]


    ETA -- If Arbor's claim is correct, the the offspring for (#2) would be the same as for (#1), except half of each would also be Single-Factor White-Eyed.


    (#2)
    1/16 White split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/16 White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS (they'll look white, but genetically they'll also be SF White-Eyed, and split to Purple and Blk Shoulder)
    1/16 IB Pied split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/16 IB Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/16 IB split to Purple, White and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/16 IB Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/16 IB split to Purple, Pied and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/16 IB Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS

    1/16 Purple White split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS (they'll look white, but genetically they'll also be Purple, and split to Blk Shoulder)
    1/16 Purple White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS (they'll look white, but genetically they'll also be Purple and SF White-Eyed, and split to Blk Shoulder)
    1/16 Purple Pied split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/16 Purple Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/16 Purple split to White and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/16 Purple Single-Factor White-Eyed split to White and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/16 Purple split to Pied and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/16 Purple Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Pied and Blk Shoulder Daughters
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  5. CORNISH_MAN

    CORNISH_MAN Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Aquaeyes, I have no idea how the pied white eyed and silver pied are different genetically (Maybe Deerman can help us out here). I could be wrong but I believe that another name or maybe the correct name for the color is "Dark Silver Pied White Eyed" and that it comes from silver pied parents but I could be wrong. The hen looks just like a dark pied with white throat patch and flights but has white tips on her back feathers. And yes all this is confusing. I dont see how I can get 8 different color/pattern variations from these birds. Everywhere Ive looked as far as genetics the most I see is 4. Not saying your wrong just a little confused. Thaks alot for your help.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  6. deerman

    deerman Rest in Peace 1949-2012

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    Cornish...reason 8 in place of the 4....is because the sex link male color.
     
  7. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    Quote:Aquaeyes, I have no idea how the pied white eyed and silver pied are different genetically (Maybe Deerman can help us out here). I could be wrong but I believe that another name or maybe the correct name for the color is "Dark Silver Pied White Eyed" and that it comes from silver pied parents but I could be wrong. The hen looks just like a dark pied with white throat patch and flights but has white tips on her back feathers. And yes all this is confusing. I dont see how I can get 8 different color/pattern variations from these birds. Everywhere Ive looked as far as genetics the most I see is 4. Not saying your wrong just a little confused. Thaks alot for your help.

    If the bird looks basically like a Dark Pied with white tips on her back feathers, then she's probably Dark Pied White-Eyed. The question is whether she is Single-Factored or Double-Factored for White-Eyed (meaning, does she have one or two copies of the White-Eyed gene?). I don't know how you can tell by looking in a hen, but perhaps others know. I was told that in males, Single-Factor birds have some ocelli that are white, but Double-Factor birds have most (or all) ocelli that are white. If she was the result of a Silver Pied X Silver Pied breeding, then she's probably Double-Factor, so I'll assume she is for calculating offspring. If she is "Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed", then you'll have to ignore my previous calculation, which assumed she was something else.

    Regarding why I had so many possibilities, it's because of the birds you're pairing up. Whenever one parent has two different versions of something (such as being "split" to something), that means each "version" has a 1/2 chance of being passed on. Because Purple is sex-linked, we have to also consider gender of offspring, because Purple is on the Z chromosome, and the mother has two versions of that chromosome -- Z and W. So add up all the number of times you have two possibilities, and multiply 1/2 by itself the same number of times. In the case of hen #2, that's 1) White vs Normal in Dad, 2) White vs Pied in Mom, 3) Z vs W in Mom -- because it affects which offspring are Purple and which are split to Purple -- and 4) White-Eyed vs Normal in Mom -- this was assuming she had only one copy of this gene. Now that I'm going off what you said in response, I'm removing the last option, because she is likely Double-Factor, and thus doesn't have two versions of that gene. Now you'll see -- 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/8.



    Purple Blk Shoulder split to White X IB Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed =

    1/4 IB Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 IB Single-Factor White-Eyed split to White, Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS (these birds will look white, but will also have one White-Eyed gene, one Purple gene, and one Blk Shoulder gene)

    1/4 Purple Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple Single-Factor White-Eyed split to White and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS (these birds will look white, but will also have one White-Eyed gene and one Blk Shoulder gene)


    [​IMG]
     
  8. CORNISH_MAN

    CORNISH_MAN Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Mar 24, 2010
    CALVARY,KY
    Quote:Aquaeyes, I have no idea how the pied white eyed and silver pied are different genetically (Maybe Deerman can help us out here). I could be wrong but I believe that another name or maybe the correct name for the color is "Dark Silver Pied White Eyed" and that it comes from silver pied parents but I could be wrong. The hen looks just like a dark pied with white throat patch and flights but has white tips on her back feathers. And yes all this is confusing. I dont see how I can get 8 different color/pattern variations from these birds. Everywhere Ive looked as far as genetics the most I see is 4. Not saying your wrong just a little confused. Thaks alot for your help.

    If the bird looks basically like a Dark Pied with white tips on her back feathers, then she's probably Dark Pied White-Eyed. The question is whether she is Single-Factored or Double-Factored for White-Eyed (meaning, does she have one or two copies of the White-Eyed gene?). I don't know how you can tell by looking in a hen, but perhaps others know. I was told that in males, Single-Factor birds have some ocelli that are white, but Double-Factor birds have most (or all) ocelli that are white. If she was the result of a Silver Pied X Silver Pied breeding, then she's probably Double-Factor, so I'll assume she is for calculating offspring. If she is "Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed", then you'll have to ignore my previous calculation, which assumed she was something else.

    Regarding why I had so many possibilities, it's because of the birds you're pairing up. Whenever one parent has two different versions of something (such as being "split" to something), that means each "version" has a 1/2 chance of being passed on. Because Purple is sex-linked, we have to also consider gender of offspring, because Purple is on the Z chromosome, and the mother has two versions of that chromosome -- Z and W. So add up all the number of times you have two possibilities, and multiply 1/2 by itself the same number of times. In the case of hen #2, that's 1) White vs Normal in Dad, 2) White vs Pied in Mom, 3) Z vs W in Mom -- because it affects which offspring are Purple and which are split to Purple -- and 4) White-Eyed vs Normal in Mom -- this was assuming she had only one copy of this gene. Now that I'm going off what you said in response, I'm removing the last option, because she is likely Double-Factor, and thus doesn't have two versions of that gene. Now you'll see -- 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/8.



    Purple Blk Shoulder split to White X IB Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed =

    1/4 IB Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 IB Single-Factor White-Eyed split to White, Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS
    1/8 White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Purple and Blk Shoulder SONS (these birds will look white, but will also have one White-Eyed gene, one Purple gene, and one Blk Shoulder gene)

    1/4 Purple Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple Single-Factor White-Eyed split to White and Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS
    1/8 Purple White Single-Factor White-Eyed split to Blk Shoulder DAUGHTERS (these birds will look white, but will also have one White-Eyed gene and one Blk Shoulder gene)


    [​IMG]

    Thanks for all the help. Im trying to keep records of what all my birds come from and After all this I think Ill just try to find a purple hen to go with him and stick those hens in with my silver pied male or maybe ill just stick one of my blk shoulder hens in with him if I cant find a purple hen. Breeding him to one of the hens I listed just brings to many variables to the table and I dont really see any benefit from any of it. But atleast I did learn a lil something about genetics today and once again thanks for your help.
     
  9. AquaEyes

    AquaEyes Chillin' With My Peeps

    What you should do is find a white male from a Silver-Pied X Silver-Pied breeding. Genetically, he'll be White Double-Factor White-Eyed, and if you put him in with those three females, you'll get a bunch of of Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed, a bunch of Silver-Pied, and a few Whites (which will be either Single- or Double-Factor White-Eyed genetically, but you couldn't tell by looking).



    White Double-Factor White-Eyed X IB Pied =

    50% White Single-Factor White-Eyed
    50% Pied Single-Factor White-Eyed (will be ALMOST as white as Silver-Pied)


    White Double-Factor White-Eyed X Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed =
    100% Silver-Pied


    White Double-Factor White-Eyed X IB Silver-Pied =
    50% Silver-Pied
    50% White Double-Factor White-Eyed
     

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