What's with the 5 year/mos old?

Discussion in 'Peafowl' started by PeaDaddy, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. PeaDaddy

    PeaDaddy Out Of The Brooder

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    We've spent quite a bit of time looking for peacocks to buy since we lost the 2. Yeah, I may be weird, and have a new addiction, but everyone has their vise, and there are worse.... Anyway... In all of the ads, people claim that the birds are "5 years old". If there's a "lucky number" with peacocks, what's with 5?

    When I asked for papers, or whatever, they can't produce any, but stand by the age. So, really, as a buyer, I've got to take what the seller is saying on good faith that I'm not actually buying a 7 year old bird. I know some of you are going to tell me that breeders are the most honest, noble, and good-intentioned people around, but let me dispell that myth. Matrix my coming two year old male was advertised and sold as a 5 mos old female. I liked him, and bought him, but at the same time.... Lucky number 5. What gives?

    All these questions and more....
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  2. Frosty

    Frosty Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I have never heard of peafowl having papers? But really, with peafowl living to be around 20, I don't think there is that much difference between a 5 year old and a seven year old apart from the train being even nicer. But to confuse a 5 month old female with a coming two male? I'm surprised that you didn't pick up on that yourself.
     
  3. PeaDaddy

    PeaDaddy Out Of The Brooder

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    There are birds being sold for hundreds (thousands?) of dollars that have no background other than what the breeder says it is. I've purchased peafowl from 3 separate "breeders", and 2 of them have been flatly dishonest.

    We suspected that Matrix (the white one in pics) was older than 5 mos immediately. But, when they were dishonest about the age of the yearling we bought (Ice Cream), we weren't able to confirm it until we got them both home, and put them next to ours. The sex wasn't a HUGE deal, but I knew something wasn't right, but at the time wasn't able to tell the difference between a young male and female (I can now).

    We breed Arabian Horses. All of our horses are papered. All of them have tracked lineages. All of them have been DNA'd. That's the world I come from. Help me understand the difference between a backyard breeder, and a "reputable" breeder in the avian community. If none of the birds come with papers, there is no formal registry, and there is no criteria for mating or pairing other than throwing mud against the wall and throwing pretty colors, what's the incentive?

    Help me understand what makes a bird worth $1000 if it has no papers, has no tracked lineage, and is just a product of someone mating 2 birds together to throw pretty colors.

    If someone SAYS that they have imported birds from Thailand, what checks are there to ensure what the seller is saying is the truth when a buyer pays $500 for a bird. If I buy a pair of Javas, and tell people they're imported, is there anyway to verify what I am saying is the truth?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  4. Mmmaddie13

    Mmmaddie13 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Higher priced birds are priced by their variety, not their bloodlines like a horse would be. Since horses have shows, and certain stallions or mares can have specifically great conformation and show records, and peafowl do not show, you can see why horses are "registered" and their papers have traced bloodlines and peafowl do not.

    Peafowl varieties are just mutations that have shown up from time to time by breeding birds that happened to have the right genetics. India Blue is the base variety, with several "patterns" stemming from that like "black shoulder," "pied," "silver pied," "white-eye," etc... as well as "colors" such as "Opal," "Purple," "Bronze," "White." And of course you can have a color and a pattern, like "Bronze Black Shoulder," or "Purple Silver Pied." Some patterns and colors (especially when combined) have taken longer than others to create. Because it's not like horses when you breed a sorrel to a black horse and get a 50%-50% (relatively speaking) chance of getting either color. If a bird of a certain color is bread to a bird of a different color, chances are, you'll get an India Blue split to whatever color the parent was. So you'd have to breed the offspring of the new mutation, back to the parent, to create more of the same mutation. And with peafowls' breeding age being 2 years old, you can see how this can take some time. The more rare the color (or the color that's taken the longest to "perfect"), the more expensive it'll be. Also, everyone wants the newest mutation, so the newer it is, the pricier it will be (look up the "Taupe" variety, I believe that's one of the newest).

    There really is no way to verify the age, or where the bird came from. Unfortunately, people can be liars and cheats, we pretty much just have to deal with that fact, which is rather unfortunate. But the best way to avoid scam artists is to do your research. If you're buying birds from craigslist, it's most likely a backyard breeder, with some exceptions. And don't get me wrong, not all backyard breeders are dishonest. Some do it because that's what they enjoy, others just to "make a profit." Generally the most reliable breeders would have a website, or at least be a part of the UPA so that they have credentials.

    If you visit the United Peafowl Association website, they have a list of a TON of breeders, and I'm sure you could find some locally. That's how I got four of my birds.

    And for the "5 year old" thing, I couldn't tell you. Pick a number, any number type thing probably. :)

    I hope all that makes sense? [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
  5. Arbor

    Arbor Chillin' With My Peeps

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    To be certain you know what you are getting, buy from a reputable breeder - one that comes recommended, not just one that says they are. Also, do your homework, like others have said. You need to know exactly what the bird you want should look like, and compare it with what someone is trying to sell you. I would personally steer clear of craigslist, ebay, etc when buying birds. Local farm auctions sometimes get the best results, but I usually go out of my way to get the bird I need from who I want to. I know breeders up here that will sell you anything if you believe it - ie offspring from opal crossed with silver pied (claims they are opal silver pied) and purple males as peach - they look nothing alike and not even close to peach????[​IMG] Gives the rest of us a bad name. As for the 5 year thing, not too young to breed and not too old either (though I've had excellent fertility out of a 20 year old male).
     
  6. Mmmaddie13

    Mmmaddie13 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    Sounds like buying peafowl can be just like buying horses.
     
  8. frenchblackcopper

    frenchblackcopper Chillin' With My Peeps

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    PeaDaddy, I totally understand where your coming from,especially about purebreds and paperwork. We have raised and imported West German working-show class line German Shepherds for over 25 years now,and without the paperwork on the dog,it's not worth anymore than those Sunday Journal $200 backyard breeder mistakes offered to anyone who will buy.If there was a Peafowl Breed Standard and "registry" it would add value to the birds.Proven or known parents thru recordkeeping or dna would also add creditability to buying Peafowl.
    Owning and raising anything that has a traceable-provable ancestry ALWAYS offers the chance for a financial premium at selling time.But if there is noone willing to ever offer to pay more because of paperwork-recordkeeping it's futile to push the issue.Such as the case with Peafowl.By keeping accurate records some breeders can give you an exact time the peachick was hatched.I know in most of my peachicks hatched I do write the time down if I'm home.I personally keep track of eggs laid per pen,per day,date egg was put into incubator,ect,,yet with all my records I keep for my own use it does not afford me a premium price for selling eggs,or peachicks.
    Too many people just own peas to have as fancy yard ornaments,nothing more.A mixed group of peas does look prettier than a flock of say 100% India Blues all together.I choose to try and keep like colors bred together instead of free ranging a mixed group.I've invested threefold in my breeding facilities,compared to what my birds are worth,yet all this expense and extra personal recordkeeping I do,does not gain me even 25% higher selling prices.
    There is many things the UPA should have done years ago to enhance peafowl in my opinion.One would be a national registry.Another is to better identify each individual color-pattern of peafowl which has never been done.This is one reason I have not joined UPA. Lots of open gates left unattended.
    But we are members of the German SV,and AKC when it comes to raising-breeding-showing German Shepherds because they have implemented long ago programs-processes-procedures to "enhance" or add value to the breed.Ear Tattooing and required DNA on all breeding dogs with records kept in a national database where parentage can be proven without a doubt.But we are comparing dogs valued at anywhere from $1000 a puppy to grown titled adults costing $150,000 or more depending on show ratings and working titles.
    If peafowl were to advance to these levels of proven degrees of standards it would make them more valuable.But when their National Organization does not push or require certain objectives,,it's a "proceed at your own risk" sort of thing for even their members.If the only National Organization for peafowl in the country and it's members cannot or will not require all members to adhere to a strict code of ethics,with consequences of having members being kicked out for proven offenses what privaleges does becoming a member have?
    As with everything prices dictates demand.Belonging to any organization that requires honesty and integrity in recordkeeping from it's membership is costly.Another prime example of membership adding and keeping value even in the toughest of times is many purebred cattle organizations,especially the Angus breed of Black or Red angus.Because of required records of all members this particular breed of cattle ALWAYS sells for a premium compared to "boxed" beef in stores of unknown origin or breed. We raised purebred Red Angus cattle for years and the recordkeeping is very intense but when it was selling time,we always got a higher selling price than other breeds of cattle.The dog organizations and cattle organization we personally have belonged to do things to help their members add or increase the value of what they have.UPA evidently does not have members that desire,or have the willingness to see thru the glass or shut any gates that are open.
     
  9. Yoda

    Yoda Chillin' With My Peeps

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    PeaDaddy,
    Ask the breeder if they band the peafowl. If they do they should be able to send you something telling you when the egg was laid and when it hatched. I band all my birds and each band is numbered. I can tell you what color the parents are, when it hatched, what the pen number is, etc from the band number on the leg. I think like Arbor said the birds are breeding so they are old enough for that but not too old so 5 would fit LOL

    Can I ask what your looking for? Maybe I can help you find it?

    Here is the link to UPA's 225 pattern Variety list: http://www.peafowl.org/varieties.htm
     
  10. PeaDaddy

    PeaDaddy Out Of The Brooder

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    Great responses, and A LOT of great insight and questions that I want to reply to. Busy weekend, but I'll have a chance to reply this evening. Thanks for all of your input!
     

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