When is it no longer a cross?

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Naamahbengals, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. Naamahbengals

    Naamahbengals Chillin' With My Peeps

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    If you cross one breed with another to improve a trait - say, size, or egg production, etc - and then breed the cross chicks back to the original breed for several generations... at what point is it no longer considered a 'cross', but just that breed? 3 generations? 10? Or is it based on the chicken's appearance (if it retained any non-standard traits, like wrong lobe color, or egg color slightly different)? Is it still considered a cross even after 5gen back to the original breed if it happens to keep a trait from the cross (that you weren't breeding for to improve)? Or is it 'xyz breed with x trait'?
     
  2. donrae

    donrae Hopelessly Addicted Premium Member

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    I'd be interested to see what some of the serious breeders say about this, also.

    My guess is there's no set number of generations. Some traits are going to be harder to breed out than others, thus more generations. I'm thinking it's when your offspring birds breed true to the original breed standard, however long that may take.

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  3. aurissavannahs

    aurissavannahs Chillin' With My Peeps

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    After an outcross a breed is considered pure when it again meets the standard and breeds true.
     
  4. Fred's Hens

    Fred's Hens Chicken Obsessed Premium Member

    Yeeeeup. Well stated.
     
  5. DCchicken

    DCchicken Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Even a true breed bird can have traits that rise to the surface from the past mix used to create the breed. For example, the Cream Legbar is a compilation of many different breeds. The mix has been standardized in the U.K. as one breed, the Crested Cream Legbar. However, many unknown traits (such as an all white recessive color) are cropping up as the different imported lines are mixed.

    I think the question you are asking (from your post in another forum) is if an Ayam Cemani that is not all black is it an Ayam Cemani. In my opinion, no it is not an Ayam Cemani. It is Ayam Kedu or a Kedu cross. The term Ayam Cemani usually refers to a Fibro Melanistic version of Ayam Kedu. So basically if it does not have black skin, comb, wattle, tongue, vent, and meat, then many people will say it is not Ayam Cemani. However since there is no standard in the U.S. for Ayam Cemani, it really does not matter unless you are trying to sell the offspring as Ayam Cemani. Most people that are paying the high price for Ayam Cemani want the bird to follow the Indonesian standard.

    Maybe this will help answer your question: http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Kedu/BRKKeduEdited.html ..

    I can tell you that those of us with Ayam Cemani are only breeding the all black birds. In other words, if the chick does not have black skin, black comb, black meat, and black vent, it is not used for breeding. In the future when Ayam Cemani is standardized, you will want your birds to be this exact standard.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  6. Naamahbengals

    Naamahbengals Chillin' With My Peeps

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    No, not a not-black Ayam Cemani - a Cemani with black skin, flesh, wattles, etc, but just whitish or blueish ear lobes (like how Silkies have). Not at all like a Kedu, with its red comb and lighter skin. I think that's different than one that looks like a completely different breed.
     
  7. DCchicken

    DCchicken Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Ayam Cemani are a variety of Kedu. In my opinion, an Ayam Cemani would only have black ears that would match the color of the comb. White would indicate that the bird is not truly fibro-melanistic. I would also argue that the tongue, throat, and vent would also need to be solid black.

    This is a slippery slope here. I have a fibro-melanistic Birchen Marans. It's skin, vent, beak, etc. are all black. If I breed this bird to my all black Cemani pullet, the offspring should probably not be called Ayam Cemani, even though the offspring would most likely be all-black. Even if I crossed them back to a Cemani rooster, they would still be part Marans. Since there is not a standard in the U.S. for Ayam Cemani, I could probably get away with selling them as Ayam Cemani. However, I would be hurting the Ayam Cemani breed itself.

    But that's just me. I breed to further standardize a breed. I think that in the race to cash in on Ayam Cemani mania, we will see many "Cemani mixes" being sold as Ayam Cemani. Since the majority of breeders are currently only breeding all-black Ayam Cemani, it is my opinion that anything other than all-black (or anything that was crossed with another breed) should be called Ayam Kedu. But this is just my opinion. Until there is a standard for Ayam Cemani, there will only be opinions.
     
  8. Naamahbengals

    Naamahbengals Chillin' With My Peeps

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    If lobes other than all-black indicate a bird that isn't truly fibro, then what about Silkies? They have blue lobes but are considered a fibro breed.
     
  9. DCchicken

    DCchicken Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I have no knowledge of silkies. The closest thing I have to a Silkie are my two silkied Hedemora pullets that are also black skinned. But I would not call them FM because Hedemora are a landrace and should be breed as a landrace in order to preserve their cold-hardiness (pretty much what defines Hedemora). I am not a genetics expert but I have spent time talking with other Cemani breeders. The opinion amongst the current Cemani breeders is that Ayam Cemani chicks must be all-black (black tongue, black comb, black wattle, black skin, black bones, black muscle, black vent, etc.). Those that are not all-black are usually culled. But this group of breeders are a small group and most of us are working with stock from Toni-Marie Astin.

    To be honest, I am a little puzzled why anyone would pursue Ayam Cemani that was not all-black. The essence of Ayam Cemani is pretty much what defines Ayam Cemani (all-black). If you are not breeding for all-black, then why Ayam Cemani? It would be kind of like someone breeding Cream Legbars that were not autosexing.

    But then again, this is just my opinion and I hope that no one is offended by my opinion.
     
  10. Naamahbengals

    Naamahbengals Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I do believe the original point of the cross was to improve laying yield; the ones with lighter lobes lay more eggs than the pure. They are being crossed back to Cemani to get rid of the lighter lobes, but in the meantime, this is the result.
     

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