Which Buckeye Lines are recreated lines?

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion

    Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion Out Of The Brooder

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    Jul 21, 2011
    What I'm wondering exactly is which Buckeye lines were recreated in the last 10 years. Which lines have had some of the recreated birds bred into them?

    What was the recreation recipe? Was it Buff Cochin roosters X Barred Rock hens, then Dark Cornish roosters X hens from Cochin/Rock cross? If not, what was it and why?

    Did anyone breed any Dark Cornish X BBR Game roosters instead of just purebred Dark Cornishes for the last cross?

    Did the recreators pay any attention to the sexes of the birds being crossed that way Nettie did? Does the sex of the crossings matter?

    edit for terminology explanation: I use the term "Dark Cornish" instead of Indian Game because that is what many in the US call Indian Games which are a current breed. See Featersite entry for Cornish.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  2. punky rooster

    punky rooster Awesome

    Jul 21, 2010
    To my knowledge, there aren't any Buckeyes strains that were recreated.
    There is no Cornish in Buckeyes (well, some strains have it added), nor are we sure what Game bird Ms. Netcalf used in the crossing.
    Chris McCary wrote:
    Mrs. Metcalf set out to create a large red fowl. She began by first crossing a Buff Cochin male to Barred Plymouth Rock females. She then crossed the half Cochin pullets with a Black Breasted Red Game male she acquired the next year, probably of Oriental ancestry and genetically Wheaten or dark Wheaten in color. She took the red offspring of this mating to create the breed.

    Hope that helps..
    Mitch​
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  3. Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion

    Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion Out Of The Brooder

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    Quote:Which ones?

    Thanks, Mitch, for the explanation. I had also read that some of the BBRs that Nettie got her game eggs from weren't of any one specific breed since some of them had yellow legs and some had slate.

    I have a Buckeye pullet with an obviously black pattern around her neck. It's theorized that there is some sort of dominant black coloring that Dark Cornish/Indian games have that is unique to them. I'm just wondering if that is where these black neck feathers are from. It's no big deal. Just curious.

    So, yeah, if you could tell me which lines have had Cornish bred into them, that would be cool.

    Hey, and do you think that many Buckeye folks have bred RIR into their birds? Or vice versa?
     
  4. punky rooster

    punky rooster Awesome

    Jul 21, 2010
    Quote:Which ones?

    Thanks, Mitch, for the explanation. I had also read that some of the BBRs that Nettie got her game eggs from weren't of any one specific breed since some of them had yellow legs and some had slate.

    I have a Buckeye pullet with an obviously black pattern around her neck. It's theorized that there is some sort of dominant black coloring that Dark Cornish/Indian games have that is unique to them. I'm just wondering if that is where these black neck feathers are from. It's no big deal. Just curious.

    So, yeah, if you could tell me which lines have had Cornish bred into them, that would be cool.

    Hey, anyou think that many Buckeye folks have bred RIR into their birds? Or vice versa?[/d do

    I know John Brown crossed Dark Cornish into his birds (but I do know He's done a nice job with them. They're up-to-standard).
    I had also read that some of the BBRs that Nettie got her game eggs from weren't of any one specific breed since some of them had yellow legs and some had slate.

    I've not heard this my self, but I've read that the chicks varied quite a bit after adding the games.
    "My, what a flock I raised that year," she remembered. "No wonder my friends laughed. Green legs and feathered legs, buff chicks, black chicks, and even red-and-black barred chicks; single combs and pea combs and no combs at all, but all fighters from way back."
    Wrote Mrs. Metcalf.
    Hey, anyou think that many Buckeye folks have bred RIR into their birds? Or vice versa?

    It's very possible, especially from way back 100 years ago, those "Pea Combed RI Reds" disappeared after she went back to calling them Buckeyes. I don't know anyone that has done it. I can tell that Buckeyes are a very different breed and doing so wouldn't help the breed.
    I'm just wondering if that is where these black neck feathers are from. It's no big deal. Just curious.

    Many Buckeyes seem to have this. My adult females do, and so do my chicks, but they could grow out of it. So, its common, and not a really big deal. Color is one of the last things you select for to begin with.
    Hope that helps
    Mitch​
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  5. Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion

    Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion Out Of The Brooder

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    Quote:I've not heard this my self, but I've read that the chicks varied quite a bit after adding the games.
    "My, what a flock I raised that year," she remembered. "No wonder my friends laughed. Green legs and feathered legs, buff chicks, black chicks, and even red-and-black barred chicks; single combs and pea combs and no combs at all, but all fighters from way back."
    Wrote Mrs. Metcalf.

    Look up 4 whole paragraphs from what you just quoted (in the original document that you're quoting from) and you will see where it discusses the yellow and slate legs. Besides, how else whould she have gotten the green legs, right? I'm just glad the fighting part is gone.

    Thanks for info on Brown line.

    I wonder if that part where she writes: "... no combs at all ..." could be a clue to us that the game she used actually had a cushion comb. A cushion comb looks like "no comb at all." Also, a cushion comb crossed with a bird that has a straight comb as Nettie's Buff/Rock crosses had could result in plenty of pea combs. Ah. There's the answer! You heard it here first. Check the date and time. [​IMG] The game bird Nettie used had a cushion comb. (Seriously, the question will never be answered. Nettie didn't know and the guy she got the eggs from told her the eggs were "purebred." Of course with yellow and slate legs, that can't be true. Only that fella might know which breeds of games he had running in his flock.)

    Anyone else have anything to add about my original post? Please.
     
  6. cgmccary

    cgmccary Chillin' With My Peeps

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    There is no information that I know of about specific current strains or lines having been "recreated." In fact, as a whole, Buckeyes have NOT been "recreated" as a breed. Almost all the strains /lines out there right now can be traced back to or through Duane Urch who can trace his Buckeyes back to the creator.

    The Brown strain (and we called it a strain because we had no other means of identifying it), John Brown's birds, he acquired in 2000 from a woman in Canada. We have not identified them past this point -- which is a mere 11 years ago -- . This woman told him she had bred Chantecler in them. Brown told me he bred Dark Cornish in his birds to get the legs stouter and shorter. We have blamed the Chantecler and Cornish blood for the green we see in the hackles and the occasional black blotching -- but these birds are all still 99.99% pure Buckeye.

    I agree that Nettie Metcalf's Oriental BBR Game, its specific breed, we are never going to know for sure or have a concensus what is was. We just need to accept it for what we know. Also, the Buckeye could not truly be recreated as the strains and lines of Barred Rock and Cochin and the BBR Game -- those lines do not exist any longer NOR could they be indentified now (if we knew). Something could be created that looked exactly like a Buckeye, but it would lack those unique qualities we are all fond.

    There are some people breeding their Buckeyes intentionally to look more like a RIR, more rectangular, believing they are improving the egg laying qualities of the breed. It shows in their birds. What they are doing is creating a Production/ Hatchery kind of Buckeye.

    Also, on an unrelated note: There is a little side story circulating that Buckeyes originated in Bucks County, PA (thus the name Buckeye) and not in Ohio by Ms. Metcalf -- I'd like to know where this got started and the origins of the story. To my knowledge, there is no truth to it -- just a vicious rumor/ myth -- just wondering what any of you have heard or read???
     
  7. Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion

    Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion Out Of The Brooder

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    Quote:What? She bred Chanteclers into them? What in the world was she thinking?! (To continue in my calm voice ...) I'm sure she had some method to her seeming madness, which leads me to the question: What improvements in her flock of Buckeyes was she hoping for? Does anyone know? (Hey, Lady, if you're out there, I'd love to hear what you were thinking at the time of the cross. I have no problem with you doing what you want with your birds. I'm just super curious.)

    I'm going to assume that she bred Partridge Chanteclers into her Buckeyes because White Chanteclers would likely have given us different problems. But still Partridge Chanteclers would put lacing on the birds, wouldn't it? It would surely introduce Pg on some level. And let's not forget about the combs. You'd have to be working with them for a few years to get the rose comb completely out. (Not that Chanteclers have rose combs, but for those reading along, rose comb genes are part of what gives Chanteclers a cushion comb, which is what Chanteclers are supposed to have.) I'm sure that lady with the 2000 Buckeyes had some plan in mind to improve her Buckeyes when she crossed them with Chanteclers, but I'm drawing a blank.

    Wait, maybe she was trying to improve the Partridge Chanteclers by breeding in some Buckeye. That would make sense. And those were the only "Buckeyes" in the world that Brown could get his hands on, so he nabbed them when he had the chance. Now there's where we could get the idea that some Buckeyes were recreated.

    Brown did do a good job at getting the lacing out, though. What a chore. But now that I think about it, Dark Cornish are laced, too, and he purposely made that cross. Anyway, I'm just glad the lacing is gone, the pea comb is back, and that he got the birds looking good again.

    Quote:Is that what that Crains Run Ranch guy is doing? Or was doing when he was trying to increases production? I wish I was good enough at this chicken thing to be able to see it in their birds as you mention because I'd like to know which breeders are doing this. I'd love more eggs, as most folks probably would, but not at the cost of the shape of the Buckeye looking more like a RIR. If I wanted RIRs, which I don't, I'd get some RIRs. How are the APA judges judging these birds? Do they notice? Do you have any photos?

    Quote:Never heard or read that one. I don't think many would fall for that one as it's pretty well documented that Nettie Metcalf of OHIO made the Buckeye (Buckeye Red). It's mentioned in just about every chicken book that discusses Buckeyes, with the usual comment: "Shockingly, the Buckeye is the only APA breed ever to be developed by a mere woman." That myth of Bucks Country, PA, being the founding location of the Buckeye will die an ignoble death.

    Anyway, thanks, cgmccary, for your fascinating insights
     
  8. punky rooster

    punky rooster Awesome

    Jul 21, 2010
    Quote:What? She bred Chanteclers into them? What in the world was she thinking?! Its possible she needed new blood and Chanteclers are all she had. (I don't know how common Buckeyes are in Canada)
    Quote:Is that what that Crains Run Ranch guy is doing? Or was doing when he was trying to increases production? I wish I was good enough at this chicken thing to be able to see it in their birds as you mention because I'd like to know which breeders are doing this. I'd love more eggs, as most folks probably would, but not at the cost of the shape of the Buckeye looking more like a RIR. If I wanted RIRs, which I don't, I'd get some RIRs. How are the APA judges judging these birds? Do they notice? Do you have any photos?
    I don't know if they show, but it would be obvious from handling them.
    Quote:Anyway, thanks, cgmccary, for your fascinating insights

    Mitch
     
  9. Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion

    Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion Out Of The Brooder

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    Quote:I wrote: How are the APA judges judging these birds? Do they notice? Do you have any photos?

    Mitch wrote: I don't know if they show, but it would be obvious from handling them.

    Just for clarification, though, it will probably only confuse things. When I asked about how the APA judges were judging "these birds," I was was not referring specifically to any one breeder's birds. I was asking about the Buckeyes that were intentionally being bred to look ore like RIRs under the belief that they are improving egg laying.

    Yeah, I don't know a) who's doing this, 2) why it wouldn't be copacetic (How do you spell that? Maybe I should use "kosher" instead.) if they tell folks that's what they're up to since it's not a cross just selecting for body shape, c) how to figure out who's doing it, or 4) how to look at a Buckeye and tell it's being bred this way.

    I'm not sure I'd trust anyone's Buckeye that lays more than 200/year. It would be just too easy to cross it with a Production Red or a ISA Brown, then do a few year's worth of trapnesting trials, and call it good. But that wouldn't be a Buckeye anymore ... not really. I guess after seven generations of back crossing, I might call it okay. But trying to maintain the egg laying abilities through all that would be such a pain and not worth it since there's really no market for that. Who really has time (and money since materials aren't cheap) to make that many trap nests or take care of that any trap nests unless they have those ones that open up on the other end after the hen lays the egg.
     
  10. punky rooster

    punky rooster Awesome

    Jul 21, 2010
    Quote:I wrote: How are the APA judges judging these birds? Do they notice? Do you have any photos?

    Mitch wrote: I don't know if they show, but it would be obvious from handling them.

    Just for clarification, though, it will probably only confuse things. When I asked about how the APA judges were judging "these birds," I was was not referring specifically to any one breeder's birds. I was asking about the Buckeyes that were intentionally being bred to look ore like RIRs under the belief that they are improving egg laying.

    Yeah, I don't know a) who's doing this, 2) why it wouldn't be copacetic (How do you spell that? Maybe I should use "kosher" instead.) if they tell folks that's what they're up to since it's not a cross just selecting for body shape, c) how to figure out who's doing it, or 4) how to look at a Buckeye and tell it's being bred this way.

    I'm not sure I'd trust anyone's Buckeye that lays more than 200/year. It would be just too easy to cross it with a Production Red or a ISA Brown, then do a few year's worth of trapnesting trials, and call it good. But that wouldn't be a Buckeye anymore ... not really. I guess after seven generations of back crossing, I might call it okay. But trying to maintain the egg laying abilities through all that would be such a pain and not worth it since there's really no market for that. Who really has time (and money since materials aren't cheap) to make that many trap nests or take care of that any trap nests unless they have those ones that open up on the other end after the hen lays the egg.

    There are other ways of tracking birds that lay and ones that don't...
    I'm not sure I'd trust anyone's Buckeye that lays more than 200/year.

    I think some SoP Buckeyes could still lay over 200 eggs a year, but not too many over that.
    Mitch​
     

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