White Sport Cream Legbars

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Brada Puhi, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Brada Puhi

    Brada Puhi Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Aloha kakou,

    In my limited hatch from eggs from Oklahoma, my only cream legbar female was a white sport. Although she is not SOP, she is quite beautiful. There was some discussion about them on the Cream Legbar threads, but I would like to bring discussion in a separate thread to keep all shared information in one place. Here are some of my questions to start the discussion:

    1) Are White Sports a result of two copies of a recessive gene? This seems to be the case as they are very rare.

    2) Is there another gene that also makes cream legbars display white feathers? I have a cockerel that displays some white feathers. These white feathers seem to be growing out as this cockerel ages.

    3) If a white sport rooster was mated to a white sport hen, would they produce offspring or would that union be lethal(kind of like the tufted gene in araucanas)? Some people said it might be lethal but I'd like to hear from people who have more than one and have bred them.

    4) Are there any other genes that seem to be linked with this gene?

    Mahalo, Puhi
     
  2. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Someplace in one of the threads, someone said that the gene pool for white Cream Legbars may be very small (to produce white) and breeding white to white may be less successful. If I find it -- I will come back and post a link.

    Is your white sport your avatar bird? You need to post some pictures for us. :O)
     
  3. Brada Puhi

    Brada Puhi Chillin' With My Peeps

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    [​IMG]

    Aloha, I couldn't really get a good picture. I didn't want to take them out today. They're too hard to put back. But this picture shows that she has full white lush plumage. Not too much crest yet but we'll see in a month or so.

    [​IMG]
    This boy here used to have a lot of white. Not so much any more. I suspect the rest will be gone by the time he's grown. That's why I was wondering if there's a different white gene that makes them white in a different way.

    Are there white sport CL cockerels out there?

    Mahalo nui, Puhi
     
  4. GaryDean26

    GaryDean26 Chicken Czar Premium Member

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    Yes, the white sports are the result of the recessive white gene that used the genetic symbol [c]. A white Legbar could also be created using the dominant white gene that has the genetic symbol , but that would require them being crossed with a white breed to introduce the dominant white gene.

    When creating white varrieties they are often build starting with a blakc bird and adding, dominant white, recessive white, self blue, barring and other diluters so that there is no leakage of black color anywhere on the bird.

    The Cream Legbar have White Leghorns in its creation and the North American lines possibly have White Leghorns out crosses in thier line too. Many of the White Leghorn lines are build with multiple dilutors. The dominate white from any such outcross or from the origins of the breed is easily breed out, but the recessive white can be passsed from generationt o generation with out ever showing up. If you assume that one in 10 Cream Legbars in the US have the recessive white gene is is easy to see how you would have a 90% chance of selecting a cockerel that doesn't have it. In so doing you may have 2-3 hens that have the gene and pass it to the next generation with out any offspring ever showing white. Eventually one of the offspring with the gene could be stelected as the breedin cockerel and if 1-2 hens in his flock also have the gene then you will start to see the white gene offspring to come out.

    I have heard one person say that blue eggs seems to be linked with the white gene. I haven't seen anything to confrim that claim, but someone on this thread may have looking into that.

    White the recessive white is not a leathal gene, I know that some people are haveing a hard time breeding the White Legbars in the US. Again I am sure that people who have worked on the white Legbars will be able to prive their insight.
     
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  5. Brada Puhi

    Brada Puhi Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Mahalo Gary for your knowledge. Assuming it is possible to also have a male white lgbar, If you breed a white male legbar to a white female legbar, all of their offspring will be white legbars, right? That might be interesting.

    kden, Puhi
     
  6. GaryDean26

    GaryDean26 Chicken Czar Premium Member

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    Correct. White to white will product 100% white offspring. I know a few people are working on a white Legbar variety, but are struggling with vigor in their white to white pairings.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
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  7. Brada Puhi

    Brada Puhi Chillin' With My Peeps

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    May 28, 2013
    Kailua, O'ahu, Hawai'i
    Aloha,

    I remember in a discussion about a month ago on one of the legbar threads where they were talking about white to white breeding in various animals, where there are problems with blindness and low fertility depending on which species.

    In evolution, genes for one animal codes for something different in another animal. Perhaps there is a faulty hox type of gene(embryo development genes) that is linked to the white color. In a homozygous recessive setting, the healthy hox gene will not be present thus hindering embryonic/fetal development.

    That's a big perhaps. Just throwing ideas out there.

    Aloha, Puhi
     
  8. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    If memory serves, the whites hatched but didn't thrive and grow through a successful chick-hood to adults. I haven't found post mentioned above.
     
  9. HaHaUthinkso

    HaHaUthinkso Out Of The Brooder

    There are a huge numbers of true Cream Legbars and those masquerading as such both in the USA and UK and from these there are a lot of whites cropping up although people do not always admit this as it as it affects kudos. The greatest problem is information can get witheld when the spotlight is on you as a top breeder or so called expert, you just smile and say thank you very much for your dollar.

    I wrote previously on this forum about the Cream Legbar and explained how in the UK some of the top breeders have been made experts because they won a top show even though there was very little competition. One of these has recently been labelled “ The Gold Standard “ this is quite absurd as its been done from a picture !! What the picture does not tell you is the line contains White Star blood introduced earlier to increase egg size and can throw whites.

    USA weed out the whites work on your lines get them to your liking, your standard and grow your breed. The 2014 import from the Cream Legbar farm is simply just another version of a Legbar, don’t ruffle your feathers over them as from what I see you’re not doing a bad job yourselves [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
    sueiris likes this.
  10. ChicKat

    ChicKat Overrun With Chickens Premium Member

    Hi HaHaUthinkso --

    So nice to see your post again. I am the person who labeled the Top Prize winner in the UK as the 'gold standard' -- maybe not the best chosen words...LOL -- I should go to our Club's website and change that to something else.... But since only the UK has recognized CLs and it did take the country's top prize, it is what we have to go by. Thanks for bringing up my 'error'.*

    There is a quote attributed to Michael Peese that states only the crest distinguishes the CL from the Silver Legbar. If that is correct, then the folks going all white/silver have the "correct" CL and all the other beautiful birds that we have are "not up to standard". It is a crucial time for the breed in the USA IMO on this very subject, because some people raising the birds don't want to end up with silver/white - and some are almost discouraged enough to go to another breed, which I hope that they don't -- hope that they will stay in the rough rapids until the stream is flowing more smoothly.

    Perhaps the birds that we are seeing that we are fond of are actually genetically " 'gold'en Crested Legbars," which is exciting, and a new variety - combining two out of three of the Legbars. This conclusion is based on 1. The Pease statement above is correct, 2. The geneticists that weigh in on the threads that the double barring and the gold dilution would make cream - indistinguishable from silver. 3. Many of us have and want to continue with a more richly colored bird than the plain white/silver ending point of 'some chestnut allowed'. 4. Some chestnut allowed is interpreted as 'although allowed, none is better.'

    * I was trying to establish based on that female - once and for all the correct coloration of a female Cream Legbar - based upon the UK Poultry judging.

    Now I am thinking that perhaps the correct coloration (based on silver ) would match this artists depiction:
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/1750 Post 1751

    This would probably be the result of silver-Legbar Looking Cream Legbar (the actual hen at the top right, and the mug artist's depiction at the bottom, although I wonder that the salmon could be made that dark. The alternative would be to have double breeding -- one set bred for silver-looking cockerels and one for salmon breasted females.

    Any thoughts that you have would be appreciated.

    BTW - to preserve the variety of Cream Legbar that a large number of people prefer, and a larger number of people have (than the silver-cream look) we are considering drawing up a Standard of Perfection that is less silver and more gold - recognizing the reality of the chickens.

    ETA - changed the website ;O)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013

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